Getting ready for a Legacy of Fire game. Only house rules in effect are that the GM is allowing me to replace the Rogue's Rapier proficiency with a Scimitar proficiency, for the sake of genre conventions.
So first, my concerns:
1. Relatively low AC
2. Possible waste on STR
3. Even with 14 CON, 10 HP seems low
My justifications:
1. By "only" going with 16 DEX, I'm able to keep my stats relatively balanced, rather than being a one-trick pony.
2. I don't want to go for a Finesse build. Without some points in STR, I won't be hitting anything in melee. Even if I did go with a Finesse build, Weapon Finesse at level 1 seems wasteful (you can get it free at level 2 with the Finesse Rogue Talent), and that would leave me whiffing for an entire level.
3. No excuses for this; the only other option would be taking Toughness at 1st level, and that's just silly.
Without further ado, the build:
When she was 10, her parents finally split and, curious to see the plane of fire, she followed her mother back home. Unfortunately, she soon learned that her mother had no interest in parenting, and she found herself largely left to her own devices in a strange, dangerous world. It would be five long years before she could return to Golarion, and by the time she found her way back home her father's greed had gotten him executed for breaking a contract in Katapesh.
Looking for some kind of safety, she signed up as a trainee in a small mercenary company and found the work much to her liking. After a few years of training, however, her mother's restless nature asserted itself and she found herself seeking independence. Seeing opportunity in Almah's trek to Kelmarane, Deena eagerly pledged her sword to the cause, hoping for gold, glory, and some measure of the contentment that eluded both of her parents.
Deena, Female Ifrit Rogue 1
Fire in the Blood: Ifrits with this racial trait mimic the healing abilities of the mephits, gaining fast healing 2 for 1 round anytime they take fire damage (whether or not this fire damage gets through their fire resistance). The ifrits can heal up to 2 hit points per level per day with this ability, after which it ceases to function. This racial trait replaces fire affinity.
STR 14
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 12
Fort: +2, Ref: +5, Will: +1
AC 18 HP 10
Languages: Common, Ignan, Kelish, Gnoll
Feats:
Scorching Weapons (Combat)
Elemental fire stirs within your body, boiling your blood and rendering you resistant to flame.
Prerequisite: Ifrit.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against fire attacks and spells with the fire descriptor or light descriptor. As a swift action, you can make up to two held manufactured metallic weapons become red-hot for 1 round, dealing 1 additional point of fire damage with a successful hit. This does not stack with other effects that add fire damage to weapons, such as the flaming weapon special ability.
Traits:
Tactician: You know how to take advantage of enemies who are unprepared for your assault. You gain a +1 trait bonus on initiative checks. In addition, once per day when you make an attack of opportunity, you gain a +2 trait bonus on the attack roll.
Unscathed: You are amazingly resistant to energy attacks because of either your upbringing or magical experimentation. Each type of energy resistance you have (if any) increases by 2 points.
Skills:
Acrobatics (Dex) 1+3+3=7
Appraise (Int)
Bluff (Cha)
Climb (Str) 1+2+3=6
Craft (Int)
Diplomacy (Cha) 1+1+3=5
Disable Device (Dex) 1+3+3=7
Disguise (Cha)
Escape Artist (Dex)
Intimidate (Cha)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int)
Knowledge (local) (Int) 1+2+3=6
Linguistics (Int)
Perception (Wis) 1+1+3=5
Perform (Cha)
Profession (Wis)
Sense Motive (Wis) 1+1+3=5
Sleight of Hand (Dex) 1+3+3=7
Stealth (Dex) 1+3+3=7
Swim (Str) 1+2+3=6
Use Magic Device (Cha) 1+1+3=5
Gear:
Chain Shirt 100gp
Rapier/Scimitar 20gp
Buckler 5gp
Shortbow 30gp
40 Arrows 2gp
Thieves' Tools 30gp
Backpack 2gp
Bedroll 1 silver
Climber's Kit 80gp
My own initial thoughts:
Drop the Charisma down to 10 and put those two points into Intelligence; at 4th level I can pop that up to a 16.
Go for Finesse, drop the Strength to a 10, use those 5 points to buy my Dex up to an 18 (buy the 16, Ifrit +2 makes it an 18) and just accept that I'll be sucking for one level...soothe the pain with a shortbow in the short-term. Finesse Rogue at 2nd, and I can melee at last. Pick up Two-weapon Fighting at 3rd, and 2 weapon Defense at 5th before I have to get Inner Flame (Ifrit feat, humor me) at 7th.
You're outside a lot, and it would be helpful to have tracking.
So, the question is, when do we take the rogue level?
At the beginning, for the extra HP, and it incidentally gives you martial weapons from go.
You'll be happy with Ranger 2/Rogue X, trust me.
I'd strongly considered just going with the Trapper Ranger archetype from the get-go; that way I'm getting martial weapons and Trapfinding all in one go. It's definitely tempting.
What about Trapper/Knife Master? A deadly dagger dervish seems very appropriate for the AP.
Ah, good call. That gets me everything I need in a one-level dip. Seems smart to start with the Ranger level then stick with Knife Master. Thanks for the help.
If you're going to go with a finesse build and your DM is letting you have scimitar proficiency then you should be looking at dervish dance.
Also, I'd suggest that Wildfire Heart is the best reason to be an ifrit. And if you're going to replace Fire Affinity (which you should) then Desert Mirage is more likely to be useful than the tiny healing of Fire In The Blood.
Finally, given ifrit's rogue favoured class bonus, it might be worth considering an intimidator build. Thug rather than knife master.
Is power attack at all beneficial over piranha strike for a dervish dance build? DD specifically mentions using the scimitar one-handed so a two-handed power attack will revert to Str to hit and damage.
I misread DD. I was thinking it let you treat the scimitar as a light weapon rather than just one-handed piercing.
First off one word Sarenrae. Plays big part in this AP.
I think Rouge (Thug) that muli-class with Inquisitor.
With enforcer feat.
Enforcer (Combat)
You are skilled at causing fear in those you brutalize.
Prerequisite: Intimidate 1 rank.
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
And
Blade of Mercy Trait.
You know that within the heart of even the most hateful and cruel living creature exists a sliver of shame and hope for redemption. You have trained long on martial techniques to use bladed weapons not to kill, but to subdue.
Benefit When striking to inflict nonlethal damage with any slashing weapon, you do not take the normal –4 penalty on your attack roll, and gain a +1 trait bonus to any nonlethal damage you inflict with a slashing weapon.
Thug
Some criminals steal with finesse, their victims only discovering the crime when the rogue is long gone and the coin already spent. A thug, on the other hand, cares nothing for finesse. Through both threat and violence, the thug gets what she wants by the promise of force, and has no problem making good on that promise as needed.
Frightening (Ex): Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Brutal Beating (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever a thug deals sneak attack damage, she can choose to forgo 1d6 points of sneak attack damage to make the target sickened for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 her rogue level. This ability does not stack with itself—only the most recent duration applies. This ability replaces trap sense.
That combo would be neat Sneak Attack and Bane and huge amount of debuff form Thug and enforcer.
At level 8 you will be doing 2d6 sneak attack +2d6 bane plus weapon for 1d6+1 trait+ 1 race= total 5d6+2. With a average of 19 round of Shaken
Or 4d6+2 if give up sneake attack dice to shaken and sicken that taget.
1/2 rouge level duration
Sickened: The character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
for 1 round
Frightened: A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
for on average 16 rounds
Shaken: A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.
So that -4 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks and -2 weapon damage rolls.
So it leaves for 1 round so it will not attack you back and you AC get better by 4 vs it and if it dose hit you take 2 less damage per strike. There is the defence that you where concerned about. Also with -4 to all save of target you struck any save or suck caster will love you.
If you're going to go with a finesse build and your DM is letting you have scimitar proficiency then you should be looking at dervish dance.
Also, I'd suggest that Wildfire Heart is the best reason to be an ifrit. And if you're going to replace Fire Affinity (which you should) then Desert Mirage is more likely to be useful than the tiny healing of Fire In The Blood.
Finally, given ifrit's rogue favoured class bonus, it might be worth considering an intimidator build. Thug rather than knife master.
Giving up Fire Resistance for a +4 to Initiative doesn't seem all that appealing. Likewise, being able to regen some health seemed more interesting than a +2 to stealth in a desert environment.
Intimidator build isn't a bad idea, but it would require some stat shuffling to pump up Charisma, and I'm kind of liking the high Intelligence at the moment.
If you're going to go with a finesse build and your DM is letting you have scimitar proficiency then you should be looking at dervish dance.
Also, I'd suggest that Wildfire Heart is the best reason to be an ifrit. And if you're going to replace Fire Affinity (which you should) then Desert Mirage is more likely to be useful than the tiny healing of Fire In The Blood.
Finally, given ifrit's rogue favoured class bonus, it might be worth considering an intimidator build. Thug rather than knife master.
Giving up Fire Resistance for a +4 to Initiative doesn't seem all that appealing. Likewise, being able to regen some health seemed more interesting than a +2 to stealth in a desert environment.
Intimidator build isn't a bad idea, but it would require some stat shuffling to pump up Charisma, and I'm kind of liking the high Intelligence at the moment.
You will not need CHA for the Intadate due fact you your damage as bonus to your skill roll. The most like CHA bonus you will have is +4 and at level 8 you will do at minimun 5d6+2 or +7 which is 3 greater than CHA. It not need I have seen paladian buil like this that only put in 1 rank every 3 levels and still Intimidate every thing. Also at 8th level you most likey get 2 or 3 shoot at this per round. Bue due to haste and BaB. You do not have be that great at it if they are checking 3 times per round.
Class Abilty
Stern Gaze (Ex): Inquisitors are skilled at sensing deception and intimidating their foes. An inquisitor receives a morale bonus on all Intimidate and Sense Motive checks equal to 1/2 her inquisitor level (minimum +1).
Racial
Favored Class Options
Rogue: Add a +1/2 bonus on Acrobatics checks to jump and a +1/2 bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize enemies.
So end of day you get 1/2 Charicter level add to every check to demoralize enemies.
You do not even have work hard to pump the bonus up and it keep getting better as you level on it own.
Giving up Fire Resistance for a +4 to Initiative doesn't seem all that appealing. Likewise, being able to regen some health seemed more interesting than a +2 to stealth in a desert environment.
Intimidator build isn't a bad idea, but it would require some stat shuffling to pump up Charisma, and I'm kind of liking the high Intelligence at the moment.
Resistance 5 isn't all that high; and most things that hit you for fire damage are going to allow Reflex saves, which, as a high-Dex Rogue, you're going to make just fine. Going first means getting a lot of extra sneak attacks. Fast Healing is great. The tiny amount of fast healing you get from Fire Affinity is nearly useless. Normally I'd say that Desert Mirage is slightly more useless, but given the AP's theme, I figure you'll spend a reasonable amount of time in the desert.
A high intelligence is more useful than a high Charisma. Over enough levels, the extra skill points will outweigh the base score modifiers. If you want to get a better Intimidate right off the bat though, you can always take the Bruising Intellect trait to have your intimidate based off Int instead of Cha.
Giving up Fire Resistance for a +4 to Initiative doesn't seem all that appealing. Likewise, being able to regen some health seemed more interesting than a +2 to stealth in a desert environment.
Intimidator build isn't a bad idea, but it would require some stat shuffling to pump up Charisma, and I'm kind of liking the high Intelligence at the moment.
Resistance 5 isn't all that high; and most things that hit you for fire damage are going to allow Reflex saves, which, as a high-Dex Rogue, you're going to make just fine. Going first means getting a lot of extra sneak attacks. Fast Healing is great. The tiny amount of fast healing you get from Fire Affinity is nearly useless. Normally I'd say that Desert Mirage is slightly more useless, but given the AP's theme, I figure you'll spend a reasonable amount of time in the desert.
A high intelligence is more useful than a high Charisma. Over enough levels, the extra skill points will outweigh the base score modifiers. If you want to get a better Intimidate right off the bat though, you can always take the Bruising Intellect trait to have your intimidate based off Int instead of Cha.
I agree that high int is worth more than high cha; Legacy of Fire doesn't really strand you out in the desert much, and I kinda doubt the elemental plane of fire (where you eventually go) will count as a desert.
As for the Initiative bonus, in my experience Rogues who rush in to get flat-footed sneak attacks tend to have short lifespans; I'd much rather go after the front-line guys have put themselves in position.
I'm getting some great advice in this thread, though. Still torn about whether I should go STR 14 DEX 16 at level 1, or STR 10 DEX 18 (weapon finesse).
If your Dex is going to be higher than your Str, you may as well go all the way. If you're willing to do the Ranger dip (or decide that you're just going to go Ranger all the way), then you don't need Str for Power Attack. If not, then I'd still suggest lowering your Str to just the 13 that you need to get the feat.
As for getting dead from rushing in, a Rogue should be *at least* as hard to hit as the d10 classes, especially at low levels. And if you go Thug Bandit (which is my suggestion, especially with a Trapper Guide dip to get your trapfinding back) you'll eventually get a full round action in surprise rounds, so you'll get to rush in and sneak attack on the surprise round, then when you win initiative you can sneak attack some more and run away if need be. Meanwhile, with the Enforcer feat and the Brutal Beating Thug ability, they'll either be shaken or frightened and no longer much of a threat to your high AC. Or they might just be dead.
STR 10
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10
Switch one of your traits to Bruising Intellect, and the other to Blade of Mercy. (If you want to leave your Int lower, Bruising Intellect may not be worth your while.)
Trapper Guide 2 / Thug Bandit 18
1: Arcane Strike (Your racial SLA qualifies you and it scales much better than Scorching Weapons), Ranger's Focus ability, Trapfinding
2: Power Attack (Ranger bonus feat)
3: Enforcer
4: Finesse Rogue
5: Dervish Dance, Brutal Beating ability
6: Ambush ability
7: Cornugon Smash (free intimidate check when you PA, so you can still intimidate any enemies that are immune to non-lethal damage)
It's a slow buildup to being fully effective, and I'd personally do the first two Rogue levels, then the Ranger dip and then get back to Rogue at level 5, but you'll get a couple more hit points by starting with Ranger.
The racial feats I would look at are Firesight (if you can get a ready source of smoke, you'll have free sneak attacks) and Elemental Jaunt (if the AP goes that high).
Going first means getting a lot of extra sneak attacks.
Rogues going first and monsters going second is the #1 cause of rogue death in our campaigns. Just keep that in mind when you win initiative and want to go charging into a room with, say, six or so trolls.
On the bright side your spectacular death will usually draw the trolls into a nice, tight grouping for your wizard's fire-based spells.
IIRC, racial SLA do not qualify you as a spellcaster, so I'm not sure about the Arcane Strike. The GM can be kind of a stickler for such things. I've seen intimidate/enforcer builds before, and I don't really want to go in that direction. Thanks for the help, though.
SLAs qualify for prerequisites. SKR even specifically said that SLAs qualify for this exact feat.
The only reason I was even suggesting an Intimidator build is that the Ifrit favoured class bonus works perfectly for one. Not sure how to advise you on a more general Rogue build.
The only other thing I can think of that's of use to an Ifrit rogue is to take the Firesight feat and the Smoke Bomb ninja trick to give yourself one-way concealment. This may have undesirable consequences for the rest of the party who now have obscured vision though.
Humphrey, I don't see how being able to get a full round surprise round and then win initiative means that a rogue has to be suicidaly stupid. You don't run into a no-win killing floor, you set up an ambush for some enemies, wait for them to get between you and the less-sneaky party members, and then weaken (or even kill) a couple of them before they realize the fight's even started. Rogues have only one less hit point per level (on average) than fighters, and at low levels they should have comparable AC - if the fight's going to wipe him out that easily, it's going to be highly dangerous for the whole party.
I think Humphrey is just saying what I'm saying: high initiative isn't worth as much to a Rogue in our opinion, and frankly Fire resistance (in a campaign where you're going to the freaking plane of fire) seems more useful, even if it's only 5 points (7 in this case, due to a trait).
One question that comes to mind, though - with Dervish Dance, you're required to not be carrying a weapon or shield in your other hand. Does a buckler count as a shield in this case, or not?
Yes, it does. If you want to increase your AC, consider going into Duelist at some point. Or UMD a Shield of Faith wand. I'd concentrate more on getting miss chances than on trying to win an AC arms race though.
Hmm. I'm just weighing scimitar/dervish dance against dual daggers/Knife Master rogue. I love daggers from a flavor standpoint, and I hate that they get short shrift in most Pathfinder games.