ARG Slapping Tail and Tripping Tail Confusion, strangely written

[Emparawr]

Ok so here is my issue. I'm helping my gf to make a draconic humanoid Antipaladin who focuses on sword and natural attacks. The one thing im struggling with is the Slapping Tail and Tripping Tails options from Advanced Race Guide since we are creating a custom race for her. I originally posted this in the Advice section but with where the conversation went I think it fits better here with the new conclusions. Still hoping to get it FAQd though as clarification is definitely needed.

Creating New Races

Slapping Tail (3 RP)
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race have a tail they can use to make attacks of opportunity with a reach of 5 feet. The tail is a natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage plus the user's Strength modifier if Small, 1d8 points of damage plus the user's Strength modifier if Medium, or 1d10 points of damage plus 1-1/2 times the user's Strength modifier if Large.
Special: If a Large creature has the reach trait, its tail also gains reach.

Some things are pretty clear but others are not
1) It seems fairly certain that Slapping Tail can only be used for AOOs because otherwise they would not have mentioned the AOO thing at all as ANY natural or manufactured weapons can make AOOs.

2) The reason that it costs three times what a normal natural weapon costs in racial point is primarily because of the higher damage and the higher str to damage modifier. But this doesn't necessarily seem like enough unless you take into account my third point.

3) That when a creature reaches Large Tall size, the tail actually becomes a reach weapon, similar to the Tentacles from Tentacle Cloak. If it were just that the range increased when you became large tall because your Natural Reach increases, there would yet again be no reason at all to even have this section in the text at all. It would be beyond overly redundant and you dont see any of the other natural weapon descriptions written with similar sections.

So my conclusion on this is that it is a higher then normal dmg natural attack, that can only be used for AOOs, and at large tall size becomes a reach weapon. Anybody have any other thoughts on this one?

As far as Tripping Tail goes it seem pretty powerful but then again 3rp is no small cost if your playing a standard range race.

Tripping Tail (3 RP)
Prerequisites: Slapping tail trait.
Benefit: When a member of this race hits with its slapping tail, it can make a trip attack as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

This one seems much more straight forward but in case this does get FAQd and responded to I'd like to make sure I get clarification. My understanding is that this means if an enemy provokes an aoo from you, you make your attack with you tail, and if you hit, that you get a free Trip Attempt as a free action immediately following that does not provoke AOOs from threatening creatures. This seem correct?

[Emparawr]

guess nobody had any additional thoughts on this one. Wish I could even just get a Devs OPINION, I mean I really don't need an official ruling on this one, just a perspective on how it was meant to function is enough for me. The hardcore RAWers can wait for an faq.

[Emparawr]

Its been a long time since I posted this and im not usually a bumper but I would still like to hear opinions on this and maybe even hear a non official opinion from a dev who worked on this book. idk that's prolly hoping for too much but you never know. The campaign the character was originally made for never made it off the ground, but im rebooting it for a new campaign coming up, so my need for info is relevant again.

[Cuuniyevo]

I believe your original interpretation was correct. The tail seems to be usable for AoO's only. 6rp for the tripping may seem steep, but considering how many feats are required before you can get free trip attempts (there are multiple feats that do this, during or after specific actions), I'd say it's fair. After all, a prone enemy is almost assuredly a dead enemy, or at least severely inconvenienced for a full round, and that benefit outlasts the straight tail damage by far. 1d8 is negligible at level 10 (and Str won't scale much compared to magical weaponry), but a trip can lead to a coup de grace.

[Ckorik]

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1) It seems fairly certain that Slapping Tail can only be used for AOOs because otherwise they would not have mentioned the AOO thing at all as ANY natural or manufactured weapons can make AOOs.

That's how it reads to me

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2) The reason that it costs three times what a normal natural weapon costs in racial point is primarily because of the higher damage and the higher str to damage modifier. But this doesn't necessarily seem like enough unless you take into account my third point.

I think you are missing a big part of the benefit here - you can make natural attacks in addition to your other attacks - if you pay attention to the FAQ system and recent (past year) big issues and questions answered - you would have noticed the 'do I still threaten 5' when I use a longspear if I want to use the other end as a improvised weapon' - which was answered as 'only if you use it as the improvised for your entire turn' (paraphrasing) - and the other biggie 'can I still threaten with armor spikes if I use a 2h weapon' which was answered with 'no - you can't *gain* more attacks than BAB progression allows - it's too powerful' (again paraphrasing).

This lets you use a reach weapon to threaten 10 feet away - *and* still threaten 5 feet away using the tail. That's a *HUGE* advantage almost no other character *can* get without extraordinary work.

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3) That when a creature reaches Large Tall size, the tail actually becomes a reach weapon, similar to the Tentacles from Tentacle Cloak. If it were just that the range increased when you became large tall because your Natural Reach increases, there would yet again be no reason at all to even have this section in the text at all. It would be beyond overly redundant and you dont see any of the other natural weapon descriptions written with similar sections.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/viperVine.ht ml

As you can see from this link - some natural weapons do get reach - here is the kicker - according to the universal monster rules natural reach weapons *still* threaten adjacent to you - unlike manufactured weapons. This is still a *HUGE* advantage.

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So my conclusion on this is that it is a higher then normal dmg natural attack, that can only be used for AOOs, and at large tall size becomes a reach weapon. Anybody have any other thoughts on this one?

It's a way to have reach and still threaten close to you - at large size it becomes a way to threaten close to you *and* has reach - it's an incredible boon that can be combined with combat reflexes in a tripping build for very nasty effect.

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This one seems much more straight forward but in case this does get FAQd and responded to I'd like to make sure I get clarification. My understanding is that this means if an enemy provokes an aoo from you, you make your attack with you tail, and if you hit, that you get a free Trip Attempt as a free action immediately following that does not provoke AOOs from threatening creatures. This seem correct?

Yes - although I don't think this is anything you *couldn't* do by just taking the trip feat.

Still this is a way to get a feat for free.... cost seems reasonable, that's my take on it.