I'm having some serious confusion for how to properly calculate a full-round attack as a Maneuver Master Monk.
If I'm a level 3 monk with Two weapon fighting, I could take 2 attacks with knees/elbows/etc. at -2/-2 penalties.
Now if I decide to flurry with a whip, that takes a -2 penalty.
So I'm thinking my 2 attacks would be at -2/-2 because of TWF, and then the flurry would also be another -2 penalty. So it would be -2/-2/-2 correct?
I'm wondering if the penalties stack. I can imagine being at -2/-2/-4 because the whip would take a TWF -2 penalty as well.
But someone in our group is arguing that it should be at -4/-4/-4, because the flurry of maneuvers would apply to all attacks.
Which one of these 3 is correct?
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The Flurry of Maneuvers specifically states that it only applies the penalty to maneuvers, so that's out. It does seem that the TWF penalties would apply though, so -2/-2/-4 should be correct. If you used either of those two attacks to make a combat maneuver though, they would also be at a -4.
The Flurry of Maneuvers specifically states that it only applies the penalty to maneuvers, so that's out. It does seem that the TWF penalties would apply though, so -2/-2/-4 should be correct. If you used either of those two attacks to make a combat maneuver though, they would also be at a -4.
The argument he has is that by combat maneuvers it would also apply to attacks since maneuvers can be substituted for attacks. I argued that attacks = maneuvers as well, but maneuvers /= attacks, much like a square is a rhombus but a rhombus is not a square.
The argument he has is that by combat maneuvers it would also apply to attacks since maneuvers can be substituted for attacks. I argued that attacks = maneuvers as well, but maneuvers /= attacks, much like a square is a rhombus but a rhombus is not a square.
What you meant to say was maneuvers = attacks, but attacks /= maneuvers. That is true, every maneuver is an attack and thus takes all penalties that attacks would get. But not every attack is a maneuver, so a maneuver-only penalty does not affect other kinds of attacks.
I agree with Ssalarn on the penalties.
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So a standard monk using Flurry of Blows to attack and trip would be -2/-2 while a Maneuver Master doing the same thing would be at -0/-2?
And a standard monk doing 2 trips is at -2/-2 while a Maneuver Master is at -2/-2 also? It doesn't make sense.
It's weird, but it is what is. The biggest difference is that the Maneuver Master only gets Maneuvers with his Flurry, while the monk has the option of choosing either a Maneuver from a more limited list or an attack. Ultimately, the Maneuver Master ends up being better at performing maneuvers (which would make sense), while the regular monk will be better at making Full Attacks that don't include quite the same arsenal of maneuver options. They end up being very different styles of build.
While the Maneuver master may be able to make a regular attack at no penalty and a maneuver at -2, he has no choice on that second attack but to make a maneuver. The monk will take penalties on both attacks but can do (basically) whatever he wants with them. He doesn't have to trip with that second attack like the MM does.
Yes, if you don't try to.confuse things with twf flurry of maneuvers seems easy. To be honest I think with twf the penalties are... -2 -2 -1.
Yes, if you don't try to.confuse things with twf flurry of maneuvers seems easy. To be honest I think with twf the penalties are... -2 -2 -1.
I don't understand where the -1 comes from, or why it is there. TWF is just -2/-2 in these circumstances, and other attacks come from character level right?
When a manwuever master uses flurry of maneuvers his monk level replaces his bab. So first attack is at +0 the maneuver is at -1. Twf does not appear to affect attacks that are seperate from the twf.
As a side note when reading about this I noticed the ability to do full damage with offhand unarmed strikes is part of flurry rather than the unarmed strike class feature.
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When a manwuever master uses flurry of maneuvers his monk level replaces his bab. So first attack is at +0 the maneuver is at -1. Twf does not appear to affect attacks that are seperate from the twf.
As a side note when reading about this I noticed the ability to do full damage with offhand unarmed strikes is part of flurry rather than the unarmed strike class feature.
With your regular attacks or attacks with your primary hand. All attacks take at least the primary hand penalty when TWF, so the -2 would apply to all attacks made that round. The further -2 for Flurry of Maneuvers would apply for a total penalty of -4. He would then calculate his BAB for the maneuver only as though his BAB were equal to his Monk level and apply any other appropriate modifiers.
Except the maneuver attack isn't really an attack with the primary or secondary weapon. Which are the only parts affected by twf..
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Except the maneuver attack isn't really an attack with the primary or secondary weapon. Which are the only parts affected by twf..
"You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary weapon" can only mean "all attacks that aren't with your off-hand weapon". Otherwise, why differentiate between regular attacks and primary attacks?
Also see this FAQ:
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
Hands isn't a direct translation. Everything in the game assumes a PC has two hands and all weapon attacks are associated with one or both of them in some way. That's why you can't TWF with Armor Spikes and a greatsword even though armor spikes don't require a hand.
So a standard monk using Flurry of Blows to attack and trip would be -2/-2 while a Maneuver Master doing the same thing would be at -0/-2?
And a standard monk doing 2 trips is at -2/-2 while a Maneuver Master is at -2/-2 also? It doesn't make sense.
Can a Maneuver Master still do an attack and a maneuver in the same round? Doesn't Maneuver Master replace "flurry of blows" with "flurry of maneuvers"?
I'm not sure the stuff about twf has any bearing on this. The flurry isn't a primary or secondary attack. For example you could use a great sword then flurrey of maneuvers. So I don't see how the stuff with the armor spikes is relevant.
For example say I'm a twf lvl 6 barbarian with a bite attack. My attack is +4 -1 mainhand +4 offhand and bite +0. The bite doesn't get an extra -2 because I'm using twf.
How is this different?
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I'm not sure the stuff about twf has any bearing on this. The flurry isn't a primary or secondary attack. For example you could use a great sword then flurrey of maneuvers. So I don't see how the stuff with the armor spikes is relevant.
For example say I'm a twf lvl 6 barbarian with a bite attack. My attack is +4 -1 mainhand +4 offhand and bite +0. The bite doesn't get an extra -2 because I'm using twf.
How is this different?
Bite attacks are natural attacks which are their own thing, tracked separately and with only the barest interaction with normal attacks, they don't really factor into this equation. All attacks and combat maneuvers are made within the framework of "handedness", that's what the armor spike FAQ references. You have two "hands" which may or may not be actual hands. Since two weapon fighting penalties apply to all normal attacks and/or attacks with your primary and off-hand attacks, any maneuvers you make fall within that framework and are subject to the -2 penalty.