Monk Flurry Build

[Kysune]

I'm working on a second character for PFS and I'm planning on building him as a monk around Flurry of Blows and the Rope Dart or the Meteor Hammer.

I know both of these weapons are a bit vague in their description on how they are used 100%. I believe I can Flurry (with Flurry of Maneuvers) a Meteor Hammer by playing a Maneuver Master archetype even though it doesn't have the "Monk" special and a Rope Dart can be flurried once I've picked up Weapon Proficiency in it.

I could either take Exotic Proficiency: Rope Dart or a 1 level dip of Unarmed Fighter to Flurry with it.

I like the Rope Dart since the dart doesn't break on hit and I don't lose it when attacking, making enchanting it well worth it as I essentially have 20ft range with unlimited ammo.

I'm quite interested in the Meteor Hammer though as it has reach, trip, and +1ac when in Fortress Mode which seems pretty useful. I'm just curious as to how effective it would be when used by a Maneuver Master and if it would inflict any physical damage during a Flurry of Trip attempts.

My main goal for the character would be to make many ranged attacks via a flurry but not with disposable ammo. I assume Meteor Hammer gets AoO's at 10 foot reach when in the correct mode. I also assume Rope Dart would get AoO's if I picked up certain feats for it?

Since crafting isn't an option in PFS, ammo can be expensive and I'd like to mess enemies up from range. The many attacks a monk gets are appealing, along with their saves, and a few feats they get.

My question is: Which weapon is worth using more and how useful would either of these be?

[Kazaan]

The rope dart has a 20' range increment, but the rope is only 12' long so you can only throw it out to a max of 10' unless you let go of the rope. It's also classed as a ranged weapon, not a thrown melee weapon such as a dagger. This means that, in order to threaten with it, you need to pick up Snap Shot.

You don't do damage on the trip attempt itself, but if you pick up Greater Trip, your target will provoke AoOs from being tripped so you can trip them and then take the AoO to deal damage as they go down. So you can use your bonus maneuver to trip them, then your iterative attacks to attack them while they suffer AC penalty for being prone. But keep in mind that some enemies are resistant to being tripped and some are outright immune. Don't focus on tripping alone; have a contingency plan.

[Kysune]

From what I read it seems like I can only attack at 10ft range with a Rope Dart (no more or less, unless I want to let go and not have it to attack with anymore which would be a horrible idea.)

Also, how would that work with a Meteor Hammer, as I would trip them at 10ft range and then get an AoO?

Which do you think would be better to focus on though? I assume my fall back option would be unarmed strikes and flurry of blows (if I'm using a Rope Dart.) Or using double mode with the Meteor Hammer and just pummeling away with a TWF build if they are resistant to trips?

[Kazaan]

The Rope Dart is a thrown weapon so you can attack up to 10' with it because you're throwing it (though you'll provoke AoO since it's a ranged attack). That includes both 5' and 10'. Beyond that, you need to let go of the rope and, since the range increment is 20', you suffer a cumulative penalty to attack for every 20' interval your target is from you. It's -2 per increment so you can throw the dart up to 20' for no penalty, up to 40' for -2, up to 60' for -4, up to a max of 5 increments (100'). But if you want to use the quick-retrieve feature, you must keep hold of the rope and can only throw it at 5' and 10' targets. The hammer, on the other hand, is an actual melee weapon. In fortress mode, it has reach so you can only hit targets 10' away and you cannot attack 5' targets with it. You can use it to trip at 10' reach (not range, don't use range for melee attacks, use the term reach to avoid confusion) and then make an AoO with it if you have Greater Trip also at 10' reach. If you are a Maneuver Master (to use the Meteor Hammer without worrying about FoB), you actually lose the ability to make normal Flurry of Blows and can only perform Flurry of Maneuvers. In that case, you might as well use the hammer for reach and use trips for targets vulnerable to trips, and either some other maneuver for non-trippable targets or just fall back on straight damage. Pick up TWF and ITWF to "rebuild" flurry if you want, but keep in mind that's 15 Dex if you want TWF, 17 if you want ITWF; don't bother with GTWF, it's not worth the feat. That's less Str you have to actually deal damage. I'd say use Grapple as your backup maneuver. If you decide to use the dart, you can focus more on the ranged combat aspect, taking appropriate feats for ranged combat such as snap shot, point blank, rapid shot, etc. In this case, take a monk archetype that doesn't lose out on Flurry so you can keep the bonus attacks and higher BAB. Flowing Monk combined with Sacred Mountain will do quite well as you can maintain your spot for Sacred Mountain bonuses while threatening out to 10' with improved snap shot with your dart for Flowing Monk purposes.

[Kysune]

I know it's not stated but I would believe that the 20' range thrown would be after the initial 10' as the rope dart can be swung out to 10' and then released with the inertia of the swing thus allowing a 30' range total. I only say this because it makes absolutely zero sense that someone would try to throw a Rope Dart without first building any inertia with a rope weighing it down as you'd have very little speed, power, or accuracy. So I'd say the 20' range is after its initial "reach".

I think I'd grab either Sohei as their Weapon/Armor proficiency replaces the original monk one and would let me FoB in armor at level 6+, or Martial Artist to bypass DR, or Monk of the Empty Hand as they could FoB with it and treat the Rope Dart as an improvised weapon. (I guess I wouldn't gain any of the "specials" from the Rope Dart anymore when treating it as an Improvised Weapon though so that would be a downside.

I'll check the Flowing and Sacred Mountain archetypes. Can you be 1 monk archetype and then go into another monk archetype legally in PFS? If so great, just curious how that would work as I guess you'd combine your monk levels to qualify for anything on the monk list that Flowing or SM doesn't replace?

I'm just wondering how deadly a MM meteor hammer monk would be or a Rope Dart monk of some archetype or if a TWF Ranger would be able to do the same thing and better. (or possibly a fighter doing the same thing better).

[Kysune]

Anyone good at theorycrafting that wants to add some thought?

[Kysune]

Do you think a Sacred Mountain(6)/Flowing Monk(5) would be better than a level Martial Artist(4)/Unarmed Fighter(7) at using the Rope Dart?

I think I'd play a Garuda-Blooded Aasimar for the +2dex/+2wis and 1/day See Invisibility also.

[Kazaan]

Archetypes don't work that way. You're not taking 1 level of Monk (Sacred Mountain) and 1 level of Monk (Flowing Monk). You're taking 1 level of Monk (Sacred Mountain + Flowing Monk). It works because the two archetypes don't replace any of the same abilities. You can never take separate levels in the same class; not even separate levels in alternate classes like Rogue + Ninja. Regarding Rope Dart, by strict RAW, it doesn't work that way. It's a thrown weapon so its range begins from your square. But it's a moot issue because you're going to keep hold of the rope anyway. Here's the mechanical breakdown of the Rope Dart:

1) It's a ranged weapon so you use dex to attack by default and it's a thrown weapon so you get str to damage.
2) It has a 20' range increment from your square so the first 20' you throw it from your person, there's no ranged penalty; you suffer cumulative -2 penalties for every increment it travels, up to 5 increments total (100').
3) The rope limits you to 10' if you are going to use it repeatedly.
4) As a ranged weapon, it doesn't threaten unless you have the Snap Shot feat, you provoke AoO when attacking with it, and you can apply any feats that apply to ranged weapons in general, and thrown weapons in particular.

I'd say 2 levels of Unarmed Fighter for proficiency with the weapon followed by Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain straight on, at least until you get 3 attacks from Flurry. Beyond that, it's your choice whether you want to continue with Monk to get the more mystical abilities, or continue with Fighter to get the more physical combat-oriented abilities. Garuda-blooded is a nice variant and I've designed a few Monks around it. Get the Aasimar's Wings feat and you'll be able to fly. If you want, pick up Shuriken for when you want to attack further than your rope dart will allow since the feats for both will overlap in most cases and you'll be able to rain shuriken down from above once you get your wings.

[The Bald Man]

Making your primary attack mode a raged attack with a 10' limit seems like a recipe for disaster. My advise is to abandon the dart idea. There are plenty of situations where you will fight someone/something with 10' of reach.

I'll leave it to someone more familiar with PFS and Meteor Hammer to comment on the hammer.

[Kysune]

@The Bald Man - Rope Dart+Snap-shot means the weapon being ranged isn't much of a negative since I don't provoke AoO's and I'll be able to threaten 5', grabbing Imp Snap-shot means I'd threaten up to 10' also. I'm assuming that if I take lunge and choose to take the -2AC penalty till my next round that I could attack/flurry up to 15' and also get AoO's at up to 15'.

If I enchant a Rope Dart once it'll remain enchanted and won't break on hit while also being auto retrievable, unlike any other ranged weapon. There's a few weapons that allow 2 ranges for attacking Kusarigama/Kyoketsu shoge but I don't believe any of them threaten both 5' and 10' all at the same time (you have to switch between the modes at the start of your turn as a free action if I'm correct.)

@Kazaan - So if I understand right, if I'm level 1 I would be (SM1/Flow1) as I'm just increasing my monk level and using both SM and Flow archetype charts to replace anything as I go up each level of monk. So at level 11 in PFS, I'd be UF2/SM9,Flow9.

I could grab Angel Wings but it would cost me 2 feats (Angelic Blood and Angel Wings) though and could only grab it at level 10. Which makes me a bit worried if I'm going to be feat starved doing that.

[Kazaan]

Lunge increases reach, not range. So it wouldn't apply to rope dart since it's still a ranged weapon. Otherwise, you can still attack at both 5' and 10' and when you take an AoO via snapshot, it doesn't provoke, but only as your AoO; normal attacks still provoke and there's no feat I'm aware of that changes that. Another thing to keep in mind that you still suffer the -4 penalty to fire into melee if the target is engaged with a teammate, and any body between offers another -4 cover penalty so be sure to pick up the appropriate feats to counteract and be aware of your positioning.

Regarding archetypes, you've got it pretty much down now; you're just a level 9 monk and you apply any archetype bonuses you have appropriately, swapping out the abilities as you get them. It'd be easier to go for Angel Wings if you focus more on Fighter since you get bonus combat feats and this frees up your odd-level feat slots for non-combat feats you may need. If focusing more on Monk, though, it may be better to skip it since PFS is limited to lvl 12 and you wouldn't be able to pick up the feat itself until an odd level (lvl 11) so you'd only enjoy the benefit for 2 levels at significant cost of having other feats. When I get a chance, I'll write up a sample build that would suit this kind of a character.

[Kysune]

Thanks Kazaan!

I'm going to take a small stab at it and you let me know how far I'm off once you can cook up a sample build.

8th level Monk (SM/Flow) - since I don't get Fast Movement, Slowfall, or either Evasions going to 8th level would get me the +2ac bonus, 1d10 unarmed damage, 4 attacks during a FoB and +1 to all saves.

I'm seeing the following as potentially good archetypes for 3 levels of fighter - Unbreakable, Unarmed Fighter, Tactician, Brawler (if Close Combatant counts unarmed strikes), and Weapon Master. If not sure which one would be best though.

Also while holding a Rope Dart I believe I could FoB with unarmed strikes at 5' range since it says Monks use elbows,knees,etc so I could hold onto the Rope Dart and pummel them with unarmed strikes so I don't provoke AoO's, if I'm reading that correctly.

So I'd be using the Rope Dart the majority of the time and falling back on Unarmed Strikes when needed.

EDIT: I'd also assume I could take a 5' step away from an enemy in my face and then do a FoB with my Rope Dart instead of just FoB with Unarmed Strikes?

***

Also, I don't believe a Monk of the Empty Hand would be able to wield the Rope Dart correctly since "a light weapon functions as a light hammer" in the Weapon and Armor Proficiency for MotEH. If the weapon still "acts" like a Rope Dart as in thrown at 5' and 10' and retrieved as free action then he could FoB with it, alter damage type, and spend 1 ki on Ki Weapons to increase the damage of the FoB with the Rope Dart to equal his Unarmed Damage, which would be at level 8 monk - 4 1d10 attacks. I'd maybe want to stop at level 6 with MotEH if I went that route (I gain nothing more in MotEH from 6-8 except for the changes on the Base monk list) Let me know your thoughts on that and if Flow/SM would be better.

[Kazaan]

The monk progression looks good; I see no glaring problem there. For possible fighter archetypes, I'd avoid Unbreakable if you're also taking SM Monk since the free Toughness feats overlap. Unarmed Fighter is very nice to get a free style feat while ignoring the prereqs, though. Tactician is nice if you're going to focus on Int and would couple nicely with Kirin Style. Brawler's Close Combat does include Unarmed Strikes. Weapon Master is a definite maybe.

Another factor is what your "backup stat" is going to be. A typical stat build for a character like this has your primary attacking stat (either Str or Dex), of course your defense stats (Con and Dex standard, add in Wis for Monk), your main utility stat (Wis in the case of Monk for ki pool), and lastly your potential dump stats (Int and Cha for a Monk or Fighter). Of course you want to focus on your hitting stat, but between a ranged weapon (rope dart) and melee weapon (unarmed strikes), your to hit stat is split between Dex and Str respectively while your to damage stat is Str in both cases. On the face of it, you'd think that it's better to go Strength so you can do damage with your rope dart, and both hit and do damage with unarmed strikes. However, Dex to Hit on your dart is going to be uber-important. So, a choice. You can have higher Dex and hit more reliably at the expense of less damage bonus on the attacks, or higher Str so you deal marginally more damage, but are less accurate (and this can kill you because a miss drops your damage by 100%). A possible solution is Weapon Finesse to allow your Unarmed Strikes to use Dex to hit. Then, you focus on your primary damage stat as Dex to ensure hits (and provide AC as well), while the Str bonus to attacks is marginalized. You'll need to make up for it by other ways to increase your to-damage bonus.

So, lets build this thing: The focus is on the Rope Dart as a ranged weapon, unarmed strikes are your "backup weapon". Dex is your primary attack stat, followed by Str and Con, and Wis as your auxiliary stat; dump both Int and Cha since you won't need them. We're taking MotSM+FM archetypes for Monk, so what to take as a Fighter archetype (if anything). Unarmed Fighter will automatically give you proficiency with the Rope Dart and you focus your Weapon Training on Monk weapons and Natural Weapons.

Garuda-blooded Aasimar Monk/Fighter
Stats

Spoiler:

20 pt buy
Str: 15 (7) +1 @4
Dex: 18* (10)
Con: 15 (7) +1 @8, 12
Int: 8 (-2)
Wis: 14* (2)
Cha: 7 (-4)

Level build

Spoiler:

1) Unarmed Fighter 1: Bab +1, IUS (fighter), Crane/Snake Style (fighter), Point Blank (lvl 1)
2) Fighter 2: Bab +2, Precise Shot (fighter)
3) Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mntn 1: Bab +2, Weapon Focus (Rope Dart), Rapid Shot (lvl 3), Weapon Finesse (monk)
4) Monk 2: Bab +3, Toughness (monk)
5) Fighter 3: Bab +4, Angelic Blood
6) Fighter 4: Bab +5, WSpec: Rope Dart (fighter)
7) Fighter 5: Bab +6, Snap Shot (lvl 7)
8) Monk 3: Bab +7
9) Monk 4: Bab +8, Clustered Shots (lvl 9)
10) Monk 5: Bab +8
11) Monk 6: Bab +9, Angel Wings (lvl 11), Improved Trip/Disarm (monk)
12) Fighter 6: Bab +10, Improved Snap Shot (fighter)

Strategy

Spoiler:

Lvl 1: You can't get precise shot until next level so be aware of your positioning and targets. Don't use your rope dart unless no one has engaged the target in melee yet. If they've been engaged, get into flanking position to provide flanking bonus to your heavy hitter. Take Crane Style if you want to be a bit more on the defensive side, or Snake Style if you have a decent tank on your team.

Lvls 2-6: Now you have the main tool of your trade with your primary support feats: Precise Shot and Rapid Shot to give you an extra attack with it. Try to pick out low-ac targets where you can, and provide flanking for your big hitters against the high AC targets.

Lvls 7-10: Snap Shot will let you make AoOs with your rope dart rather than Unarmed Strikes. You also get Weapon Training which bolsters your hit and damage and Clustered Shots which helps deal with DR a bit.

Lvls 11-12: The last couple of levels of PFS; you'll get your wings, and extend the range of your snap shot out to the full 10' your dart can go (while still using the rope feature). Improved Trip/Disarm is more of an auxiliary feat at this point, but you get it from Monk and you've gotta pick something; those are probably your best bet to take. Keep in mind you have to use Unarmed Strikes since you can't make combat maneuvers with a ranged weapon (ie. rope dart).

[Kysune]

Thanks Kazaan,

I have a question regarding 3rd level-

How am I picking up Weapon Focus, Rapid Shot, and Weapon Finesse at 3rd level? I see Weapon Finesse comes from the 1st level monk bonus feat, and Rapid Shot would come from my free feat at 3rd character level. I'm not sure how I'm getting Weapon Focus though.

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Do you think Angel Wings is still worth getting in PFS or would there be something more worthwhile to get?

Do you also think that the weapon proficiency and the bonus style is worth more than the +1atk & +3dmg to Unarmed Strikes from Brawler or the +1atk and +1dmg to Rope Dart from Weapon Master. Just double checking because only a few stances are looking decent to me and was thinking maybe the atk/dmg trade off from one of those archetypes would outweigh the cost of 1 feat (I guess this would depend more if Angel Wings isn't really needed since it's a 2feat progression).

I tried to run through the styles list and wasn't sure how Flowing or SM would maybe boost or make some of these styles better. If you have any suggestions or details on how the archetypes synergize with any of these styles please fill me in. :)

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Also, I'm not sure how useful the stances will be...Crane seems like it'll just make me miss more with my lowered BAB and not help much since I'm not going for all 3 Crane style moves. Snake Style seems pretty useful, especially if I'm maxing Sense Motive.

Monkey style seems pretty good also but you didn't include it. I'd get a +2 to acrobatics, no penalty on melee attack rolls or AC while prone. I can also crawl or stund up from prone without provoking AoO's and can stand back up as a swift action with a successful DC20 acrobatics. This seems like it would be really helpful but I'm not sure how often I'd get knocked prone in PFS.
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Btw good catch on Unbreakable, and I think the Tactician idea is neat but would make me really MAD as my stats are already stretched a bit.

I really appreciate your help with this, it's a little over my head on what ends up being most useful later down the road. My highest PFS character atm is a lvl2 ninja and this will be my 2nd character.

[Kysune]

*bump*

[Kazaan]

My bad, I think I meant to move weapon focus when I changed that from a Fighter level to a Monk level but missed it. I guess move Weapon Focus to lvl 5 and forget about Angel Blood/Wings in favor of some other benefit, whatever suits your fancy.

The benefit I find for Unarmed Fighter is that his bonus applies to both unarmed strike and rope dart, whereas the other archetypes make you pick one or the other. Granted, the whole idea is, relatively speaking, sub-par, but I'm looking to make it the best sub-par strategy it can be; it won't compete with a more mainstream and optimized strategy, keep that in mind.

Crane is going to be a bit of a detriment since you're taking a double hit to accuracy from FoB and Rapid Shot so Snake is probably better. You're unlikely to get knocked down too much so Monkey is generally considered a sub-par style unless you're building around it in particular such as an anti-ranged build.

[Kysune]

@Kazaan,

Thanks. This gives me a pretty good idea for Rope Dart. Could you do a sample build for a Meteor Hammer user? I'm assuming I'd either want to use a 2handed fighter, Barbarian, or Maneuver Master? I'd like to compare the Rope Dart build with this to see which one would help more.

I'm curious as to FoM or a Fighter/Barb setup would do best from 1-11. I take it I could pickup Lunge for MH to attack at 10' and 15', and would need to switch to double mode to attack at 5' and 10' while dual wielding.

I take it my Str could be swapped with my Dex (Str18, Dex15)? I guess 15dex would get me TWF but does that count for Fortress 10' reach mode or only when in 5' Double mode?

[Kazaan]

The meteor hammer states that, in fortress mode, you gain reach, but cannot use it as a double weapon. So TWF would be out at that point. Also, it's not a Monk weapon so you're limited to either Maneuver Master or a Monk archetype that drops flurry. You could also keep it in fortress mode because you can always fall back on Unarmed Strike for enemies that close in to 5 feet. Additionally, size affects reach (it doesn't affect range of ranged attacks) so you're going to want to keep the option of Enlarge Person open which means picking a Humanoid race. I'd personally just go with Human.

Stats

Spoiler:

Str: 18* (10)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 15 (7)
Cha: 7 (-4)

Level Build

Spoiler:

1) Unarmed Fighter 1: Bab +1, Dragon Style (fighter), IUS (fighter), EWP(Meteor Hammer) (lvl 1), WFocus (meteor hammer) (human)
2) Master of Many Styles/Sacred Mountain 1: Bab +1, Dragon Ferocity (monk)
3) Monk 2: Bab +2, Dragon Roar (monk), Toughness (monk)
4) Fighter 2: Bab +3, +1 Dex, TWF (fighter)
5) Monk 3: Bab +4, Combat Reflexes (lvl 5)
6) Monk 4: Bab +5
7) Fighter 3: Bab +6, Lightning Reflexes (lvl 7)
8) Fighter 4: Bab +7, WSpec (meteor hammer) (fighter), +1 Wis
9) Fighter 5: Bab +8, Monastic Legacy (lvl 9)
10) Fighter 6: Bab +9, Lunge (fighter)
11) Fighter 7: Bab +10, Extra Ki (lvl 11)
12) Fighter 8: Bab +11, GWFocus (meteor hammer) (fighter), +1 Con

Strategy

Spoiler:

Lvls 1-3: Wield the Meteor Hammer in fortress mode at all times. Dragon Style will let you charge through difficult terrain so use that to your advantage, especially if you have casters on your team who can set up difficult terrain to hamper the targets. Ideally, if the target doesn't have a reach weapon, trip them at reach. Dragon Roar will let you nail groups of enemies and Toughness will round out your HP. After lvl 2, you can get 1.5x Str bonus on your AoO if made with an unarmed strike. Use that to your advantage if they get close.

Lvls 4-9: Pretty much more of the same. You have the added benefit that you can switch to double mode if they come close. Between Fighter weapon training and weapon focus/specialization, the damage and attack values for your hammer and unarmed strikes will fluctuate. Keep close track of them and use whatever is to your best advantage, keeping in mind the Str bonuses from dragon style which only apply to unarmed strikes. Monastic Legacy will probably make it better to just use unarmed strikes for your TWF attacks and keep the hammer in fortress mode at all times; it will also bump up your dragon roar damage.

Lvls 10-12: A bit more versatility here, lunge gives you and extra 5' to your reach. Other than that, keep doing what you've been doing

[Kysune]

Do you think it would be more useful to go Human or to pick Half-Elf and use ARG to swap out the "adaptability" trait for "Ancestral Arms"? Not sure if the benefits of Half-elf (Multitalented, Immunities, +2perception, and Low-Light vision) would be better than Human. I'd like to know your thoughts.

Stats look good but I may want to raise Cha to 10, sometimes people relate low Charisma to being ugly but maybe I can roleplay her just being socially awkward? I'm thinking of Gogo from "Kill Bill" as the look and weapon use of this character.

Good catch on the Enlarge Person, I wouldn't have known that until I tried to cast it via potion/scroll as an aasimar and the GM tell me "no."

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I take it you picked Dragon Style chain because of the high Str for the bonus unarmed strike damage. Which I'm also guessing you picked MoMS/SM over Flow/SM since the high Str bonus and the option to incorporate extra Unarmed Damage? Which I see you suggest TWF since I won't have FoB for unarmed strike.

I was going to ask why not Flow/SM (to FoB with Unarmed Strikes with Dragon Stance) but I realized while typing it out the reason was because I'd lose a lot of fighter levels/feats just to keep FoB up.

-----------

I do like the fact that "lunge" works with meteor hammer. Does that just mean I attack 10' and 15' during my turn or that I threaten those ranges for AoO's until next turn?

1) "Would Half-Elf be better?"
2) "Is there a better stance I could take or more useful feats to grab instead of taking all 3 Dragon style feats?"
3) and "Do you think this setup is more effective than a Maneuver Master monk?"

[Kazaan]

1) Half-Elf may be an appropriate swap; the feat trade is a wash and you get low-light and perception from the trade at the expense of a free skill point per level. Also, since you have a pretty even mix of classes, the multi-talented trait will serve well. I just have a personal preference for Human characters.

2) When using a 2-h weapon and no easy access to Elemental Fist, it's hard to easily get good style feats. Crane is out because it requires a free hand, and Snapping Turtle too and it's a poor style to boot. Snake Style is about AoOs and may be a good alternative, but the main appeal of Dragon Style is the ability to charge, run, and withdraw through difficult terrain. You've got to be able to get into position and, with this one style, you can not only do that with ease, but you get bonuses to damage when forced into close combat and an AoE use of stunning fist. I looked over all the styles 3-4 times; Dragon is the best you can get for this.

3) Yes; since you're attacking at reach, you can trip with the hammer even without the Improved Trip feat so long as the enemy doesn't also have reach. Once you get lunge, you can even trip from 15' away if the enemy does have reach.

Lastly, charisma isn't about looks; it's about confidence. Keep in mind that Hags, one of the ugliest creatures of the material plane, are also some of the highest-charisma creatures. Eldritch abominations and Old Ones are mind-breakingly ugly and they have even higher charisma. A physically beautiful person can have low charisma, reflecting a person who relies on nothing more than their looks. But a person with charisma will attract attention by their confidence; if they're also good looking, they'll use that to their advantage, but if not, they'll work around it. So you don't have to play as being "ugly" per say, just play as being sort of plain-looking and not particularly sociable... you know, as a monk who spends years in seclusion training would be expected to be.

[Kysune]

I'm wondering if I should dump Wis some and use the Fighter's proficiency in Armor? I only lose bonus AC, Fast Movement, and FoB while wearing armor. I'm already losing FoB and I'm not sure if the bonus AC is referring to the +wis modifier or the "AC Bonus" column from monk or both but I'd think the armor would easily replace and/or surpass that and at a cheaper cost later in higher levels. I don't think armor would affect anything else right? Just something I'm wondering.

I like your response on Charisma, makes a lot of sense for a monk that's been in seclusion training for a long time.

Do you think I could use Dragon Style -> Dragon Ferocity to unlock Elemental Fist and then grab a second stance chain that was previous locked due to EF requirement? MoMS allows 2 active stances at once so I'm wondering if I should take advantage of that since atm I'd only be having 1 active style and not taking full advantage of that benefit.

Also if I go half-elf and pickup the exotic monk proficiency I only see the Unarmed Style free feat being beneficial for going Unarmed Fighter. Would I be better off going 2-handed Fighter for the increased dmg for Meteor Hammer? Or possibly Brawler? (Asking because both of these allow medium/heavy armor and if armor is a better option then I may want those proficiencies whereas Unarmed Fighter only has Light Armor proficiency)

I get IUS from lvl1 Monk so that bonus from Unarmed Fighter won't be as helpful after I pickup my first monk level.

I'm also not sure how effective Stunning Fist or Dragon's Roar are. I've never used either of those before (I guess SF has no DC?) and I'd assume my DC for Dragon Roar would be pretty poor since my Wis isn't that high. Would I be better off not grabbing Dragon's Roar and getting Elemental Fist + another style (Efreeti, Marid, Shaitan, etc. and possibly picking up the additional style feats for my 2nd stance?)

Lastly does Lunge work with AoO's?

[Kazaan]

If you're going to dump Wis in favor of armor, it's not quite a bad tradeoff. MoMS loses flurry anyway and Fast Movement isn't too bad of a loss. In that case, you might as well dump Dragon Roar as well since the DC is based on Wis and put more levels into Monk to get to lvl 6 to get a 4th style feet sans prereqs. But I'd still stick with Unarmed Fighter because that free style feat is incredibly good since the best styles have such steep prereqs. The redundant IUS is just a tax to pay. If you decide to stick with Dragon Roar, just be judicious in when you apply it. It's a fort save so if you target enemies you expect to have lower fortitude, it'll have better chances and you also get 1 point higher DC for every 2 class levels as well. The extra reach from Lunge ends at the end of your turn while the AC penalty lasts until the beginning of your next turn so you will only get the Lunge benefit if someone manages to provoke an AoO during your turn which is unlikely since you don't have things like Greater Trip. Also, at that point, there's not much point having Stunning Fist so you might as well tack on Hungry Ghost archetype to trade it out for a free Punishing Kick

So, I guess the altered low-wis build would be as follows:

Half-Elf Fighter/Monk
Stats

Spoiler:

Str: 20* (17)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 10 (0)
Cha: 7 (-4)

Levels

Spoiler:

1) Unarmed Fighter 1: Bab +1, Dragon Style (fighter), IUS (fighter), EWP(Meteor Hammer) (Elf), WFocus (meteor hammer) (lvl 1)
2) Hungry Ghost/Master of Many Styles/Sacred Mountain 1: Bab +1, Dragon Ferocity (monk)
3) Fighter 2: Bab +2, Elemental Fist (element of your choice) (fighter)
4) Monk 2: Bab +3, Elemental Style for your element, Toughness (monk), Punishing Kick (monk), +1 Dex
5) Monk 3: Bab +4, TWF (lvl 5)
6) Monk 4: Bab +5
7) Fighter 3: Bab +6, Lightning Reflexes (lvl 7)
8) Fighter 4: Bab +7, WSpec (meteor hammer) (fighter), +1 Con
9) Monk 5: Bab +7, Lunge (lvl 9)
10) Monk 6: Bab +8, Elemental Style tier 2 (monk)
11) Monk 7: Bab +9, Combat Reflexes (lvl 11)
12) Monk 8: Bab +10, +1 Con

Notes:

Spoiler:

Pretty much the same strategies as before, but you'll have the option of using Punishing Kick to push the opponent away from you if he closes, forcing him to provoke again if he wants to close the gap. Note that since you're taking Elemental Fist sans prereqs because of the Dragon Ferocity special quality, you only get it for one element. So pick your favorite element and that's what you'll use and go for the elemental style associated with that element: Djinni/Air, Efreeti/Fire, Shaitan/Acid, Marid/Cold. You'll hit a touch harder due to having 20 starting Str rather than 18 and the +1 higher Str mod balances out the -1 lower ending BAB so that's mostly a wash.

[Thalin]

In answer to the question posed, no, lunge does not work with AOOs.

I guess the best question is "What are you trying to do?" Do you want to make a trip build? Maximize damage while maintaining a good AC / Saves? There are a lot of options you can go with this; the quesiton is what made you pick up the meteor hammer as your weapon (it's OK, but really Dwarven Longhammer/Luceren Hammer is a better damage weapon and Horechopper is a better trip weapon).

There are many ways to build a monk, what would you like to do with this one?

[Kysune]

@Thalin - Building the character Gogo off of Kill Bill as she uses the Meteor Hammer. Also I've been personally practicing the Rope Dart/Meteor Hammer irl. I play PFS so my teammates are random and numbers fluctuate so I can't really count on my team all the time. I'd say I'm going for "maximizing dmg while maintaining a good AC / Saves" build. I know MH isn't the best choice but I'm wanting to use it to the best of my ability and use it mostly in 10'-15' range (fortress mode).

@Kazaan - Is Lightning Reflexes a prereq for something? If not I'd just save the feat and buy a ring of evasion instead. I do like the idea of Punishing Kick from HG archetype, it goes off "DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier to avoid the effect." though so I'm not sure how useful it would be since it would be 10 + half char lvl + 0 though.

I like both builds and I'll run through the other elemental styles and post it later tonight on which one looks best to me for the 2nd build. Which build you think works better Kazaan?

[Kysune]

Here's what I see with the different styles available.

Styles unlocked by Elemental Fist -

1) Marid Style - Wow, this style looks GREAT! Not only does it encase an enemy with ice to control the battlefield, but you can force the enemy to use a Fort or Reflex save between Coldsnap and Spirit. Coldsnap has 30ft line also so allies aren't getting in your range as much like a 15ft cone (Dragon Roar or Efreeti Touch).

2) Djinni Style - Seems to be next best option since once you get the Style chain there's no save vs Deafen on the spin. Seems like a whirlwind attack for monks.

3) Shaitan and Efreeti styles - Both look like crap tbh. (both styles DC's are reflex based only and 15' cone and 5' column specials seem lackluster.)

----------------

Styles available without Elemental Fist that might be great? -

1) Kirin Style - Not sure how useful Kirin Path is......but If I dropped Str from 18 to 16 (pre-racial stat bonus) that's 7 points I could add to raise Int to 15.

I would have 15int and raise Int to 16 at lvl 4 for a +3 int mod. Not only would I gain 3 extra skill points a level (helpful for fighter) but with Kiran Strike that's +6dmg to an enemy I've indentified. I'm losing +1atk and +1dmg by lowing Str but gaining +6dmg from Kirin Strike. This seems like a great trade right?

2) Janni Style - Can I Punishing Kick with unarmed strike, PK granting me +4 to trip which I use my 2nd atk (6+ BAB) to trip and drag target back to me with Meteor Hammer? Would this work and how many AoO's would I generate for myself or teammates? Essentially if it's possible I'd be Yo-Yo'ing my enemy away from me and back in towards me.

3) Mantis Style - Causes multiple effects from 1 SF, ups SF DC by 2 and gives +2atk for unarmed strikes using SF. Seems pretty strong, but only if I'm keeping Wis high and keeping SF.

----

Conclusion - Final Thoughts

1) How useful would Electricity or Cold resist actually be in PFS? How often do either of these ever come up compared to Fire dmg?

2) Out of the styles above I really like Kirin Style with that +6dmg and Marid Style with the entanglement based off either Fort or Reflex save. Both styles seem super useful, kinda wish I could take both.

3) EDIT: Kirin seems more possible since I can ignore Elemental Strike and I only have 4 total Style Feats that can ignore Prereqs (Marid Style has some high prereqs).

With Marid, I tried building and could only get Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Elemental Fist, Marid Style (picked up normally through prereqs), and Marid Spirit. Only way I could get Coldsnap is MoMS lvl10 which drops me down to 1lvl unarmed fighter / 10lvl monk or 14th lvl which is outside of PFS. As far as I can tell Marid style is probably not going to work here unless you see any loopholes I can take.

Maybe getting all 3 of Dragon and Kirin style chains would work best? Or maybe Djinni and Dragon? I'm not sure how awesome a non-save Deafen is so give me your thoughts on Djinni Style chain. Or if there's some way to get all 3 Marid Style chain please let me know, I can't figure out how.

4) Also, Archon-Blooded (Lawbringer) Aasimar seems decent with the +2con/+2wis. What else am I giving up besides Enlarge Person by being a Native Outsider? Are there any benefits that would make this a good choice or am I hurting myself more if I pick an Aasimar?

[Kysune]

Here's the new setup based off your suggestion Kazaan. Hopefully this narrows things down and helps in picking the last few pieces to complete this build. :)

Half-Elf Fighter/Monk

Stats

Spoiler:

Str: 18* (10)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 15 (7)
Wis: 10 (0)
Cha: 7 (-4)

Levels

Spoiler:

1) Unarmed Fighter 1: Bab +1, Dragon Style (fighter), IUS (fighter), EWP(Meteor Hammer) (Half-Elf), WFocus (meteor hammer) (lvl 1)
2) Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles/Sacred Mountain 1: Bab +1, Dragon Ferocity (monk)
3) Fighter 2: Bab +2, 1 feat to spend (fighter), 1 feat to spend (lvl 3)
4) Monk 2: Bab +3, Kirin Style (monk), Toughness (monk), +1 Dex
5) Monk 3: Bab +4, TWF (lvl 5)
6) Monk 4: Bab +5
7) Fighter 3: Bab +6, why Lightning Reflexes? (lvl 7)
8) Fighter 4: Bab +7, WSpec (meteor hammer) (fighter), +1 Int
9) Monk 5: Bab +7, Lunge (lvl 9)
10) Monk 6: Bab +8, Kirin Strike (monk)
11) Monk 7: Bab +9, Combat Reflexes (lvl 11)
12) Monk 8: Bab +10, +1 Con

Notes:

Spoiler:

I don't know what to take with the few extra bolded feats in the above list. I'm not sure if I can get "Kirin Path" or if it's even really useful. Should I just skip "Kirin Path"? I also couldn't figure out how to get Kirin Strike earlier than 10th level. Let me know if I should adjust some stats, I just aimed for 16int by the time I got Kirin Strike for the +6dmg vs an identified target. Maybe I should just aim for +4dmg (14int) and spend the other points elsewhere?

Since Wis is 10 and Dex is mediocre I plan on wearing Light Armor (un armed fighter) to help offset my low AC. Would it be worth spending a feat on Medium Armor Proficiency?

Should I instead get Lunge at lvl 7 and then Combat Reflexes at lvl 9?

[Kazaan]

If you want to ditch the reflexes, feel free to. I was just a bit at a loss of what to throw in there. Since you're going Int, you also free up the path to take Combat Expertise and work on the "smart" maneuvers; probably Trip so you can unlock Greater Trip to get an AoO on enemies you down. You can take Expertise and Improved Trip at lvl 3, then pick up Greater Trip at lvl 7 in place of Reflexes. Also, wear Light Armor and get the Brawling enhancement on it so that, when you need to fall back on unarmed strikes, you get a bonus on them (since your WFocus and WSpec are on the Hammer).

[Kysune]

Well this build is shifting from the Meteor Hammer but I think it actually works better as a melee weapon based monk. Let me know what you think people.

Monk - hungry Ghost lvl 12:

Str: 11 (1)
Dex: 19* (13) - *+2human, +1@ lvl4, lvl8, & lvl12
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 14 (5)
Cha: 7 (-4)

1) Hungry Ghost 1: Bab +0, Dodge (monk), Weapon Finesse (lvl 1)
2) Monk 2: Bab +1, EWProf: 9SWhip (monk), Combat Reflexes (monk)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Crane Style (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Dex
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Crane Wing (lvl 5)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Mobility (monk)
7) Monk 7: Bab +5, Crane Riposte (lvl 7)
8) Monk 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Dex
9) Monk 9: Bab +6/+1, Weapon Focus: 9SW (lvl 9)
10) Monk 10: Bab +7/+2, Improved Critical: 9SWhip (monk)
11) Monk 11: Bab +8/+3, Power Attack OR Step Up OR Hammer the Gaps OR Vicious Stomp (lvl 11)
12) Monk 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Dex

Not sure which feat @ lvl 11 would be best. Focusing on 17-20 crit range whip with FoB to Life Funnel hp. Whip would be "Agile" once I got enough money/fame. Also using whip in defensive mode (+1ac) along with Crane Style.