One of my players has rolled up a Grenadier archetype for Alchemist and I'm rather annoyed. Between the free precise bomb and the sheer damage output he's dealing, even with the level appropriate CR encounters, he and the barbarian are ending my encounters in a few rounds if I'm lucky with almost no consequences to the party. After looking in to the bombs feature here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist#TOC-Bomb-Su- I noticed something that got me confused. It says, "Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity." and RIGHT after that it says, "Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack." Now, Throw Splash Weapon rules state that it is a full round action JUST to prep the thrown weapon. This makes MUCH more sense to me, as being able to do 3d6 a round without hitting allies or move anywhere near combat seems completely broken. Every OTHER round makes more sense, and seems to fit, but my player is adamantly arguing that the Throw Splash Weapon rules do NOT apply. Help?
Oh, and before anyone says, "Up the CR" the second I do that the entire party dies. So, I'm stuck.
The "throw splash weapon" special attack is different from the "preparing to throw splash weapon" action.
The "preparing to throw" is referring to something like a flask of oil, which requires a full round to insert a fuse or wick, light it, and then throw it.
Something like alchemist's fire, which is intended to be a splash weapon to begin with, requires no preparation and is simply drawn and thrown. An alchemist's bombs work the same way.
throwing a bomb is a standard action. Once he hita 8 he can take fast bombs and do more than one a round
that said just keep enemies spread out. A little energy resist goes a long way and you run out of bombs quickly
also you didn't mention this but remember that a crit w a bomb only adds another 1d6 of damage plus int
Yeah, he's correct. Splash weapon rules apply to things like crits (or the fact that splash weapons don't crit) and misses to determine where the splash weapon actually lands. If you up the CR, and your players are instantly dying, I can't help but think you're doing CRs wrong, or upping it by way too much. Upping the CR by 1 or 2 against a party that's steamrolling through every encounter shouldn't cause a wipe.
If you want to know how to make it harder, use tactics. Have your creatures spread out, use creatures or NPC enemies that make use of ranged tactics (a bomb can only be thrown 5 range increments, so that's a max of 100 feet) or even add some spellcasters in there. Find creatures that fit the CR you're looking for that have some energy resist, or energy immunities. Dretch are a good example. CR2 and resist acid/fire/cold 10. Along with the stinking cloud they can use as battlefield control, a small number of dretch can make for a very hard encounter.
As for your Barbarian... Barbarians do one thing well. They hit stuff. They hit stuff hard.
You want to challenge your players? Come up with better places for battles. Have enemies who use tactics just like your players do. Start off NPCs in advantageous positions. Make use of traps and ambushes.
Oh, also, what character creation rules are you using? Because keep in mind, book CR encounters are designed around groups that are using 15 point buy, and only have 4-5 players. If you upped the point buy at all, or have a larger group, then you need to edit the CR accordingly.
Oh, also, what character creation rules are you using? Because keep in mind, book CR encounters are designed around groups that are using 15 point buy, and only have 4-5 players. If you upped the point buy at all, or have a larger group, then you need to edit the CR accordingly.
Also, number of encounters per day matters. If the party can rest after each fight, they can "go nova" and use all their best abilities, rather than needing to conserve them for later fights. That significantly ups their power.
I made both these mistakes with my Kingmaker group - really high stat buy (technically it was generated stat arrays, but they were really good ones), and Kingmaker does the one-fight-per-day by default. I countered by upping all the fights in some way.
Between the free precise bomb and the sheer damage output he's dealing, even with the level appropriate CR encounters, he and the barbarian are ending my encounters in a few rounds if I'm lucky with almost no consequences to the party.
What I don't understand is, why is this a problem? Do you want to beat them? That's not really a healthy attitude for a GM to have. If they're having fun, them winning sounds like a fine outcome to me.
|
Lets see:
Level 5,
Dye Arrow (no damage, hits touch)
Infuse Weapon + Hybrid funnel + Alchemist Fire + Acid = 2d6
Explosive Missile = 3d6 + Int
Unstable Accelerant + 1d6
+1d6 per round (alchemist fire)
He should be able to lay down 5d6 fire + 1d6 acid + Int at touch, at long range. or use a regular arrow and lay down 5d6 fire + 1d6 acid + int + 1d6 weapon. It will get a little expensive, but not too bad. And since he should be able to make most of the parts himself...
|
Lets see:
Level 5,
Dye Arrow (no damage, hits touch)
Infuse Weapon + Hybrid funnel + Alchemist Fire + Acid = 2d6
Explosive Missile = 3d6 + Int
Unstable Accelerant + 1d6
+1d6 per round (alchemist fire)He should be able to lay down 5d6 fire + 1d6 acid + Int at touch, at long range. or use a regular arrow and lay down 5d6 fire + 1d6 acid + int + 1d6 weapon. It will get a little expensive, but not too bad. And since he should be able to make most of the parts himself...
Why use a Dye Arrow when a Tanglefoot still auto entangles the foe?
I myself rule that the hybridization'd item also gets int to damage, since it's still a separate splash weapon (which is what gets int to damage), but yeah, you can REALLY mess someone up with a funnel and Explosive Missile, or once they can afford a +2 weapon, a Conductive Longbow to make sure you're only using (two) bombs per hit.
You are actually really lucky he IS using bombs and he didn't go Vivisectionist melee on you!
|
|
Hmm... tangleshot gets a bit expensive. but no worse than anything else in that list.
Actually, if he can reliably hit the target's full AC and cost is no issue (as in having the fighter knock down the door just after he drinks an elixer of true shot):
Slow burn Arrow 1d6
Tangleburn bag entangle + 1d6 fire + dc 20 or on fire
Alchemist Fire 1d6 + on fire
Explosive Missile (with the explosive missile discovery) 3d6 + on fire
Unstable Accelerant 1d6
1d6 weapon + 6d6 fire + bonuses
Next round:
Slow Burn 1d6 one round.
On Fire x 3 3d6 ongoing.
Explosive Bomb: Full round action + Alchemist Reflex save to put out
Alchemist fire: Full round action + DC 15 Reflex save to put out
Tangle Burn Bag: Full round action + DC 25 Reflex save to put out (drops to DC 15 after 2 rounds)
And entangled.
Hmm... interesting question, does "on fire" stack? Extra damage usually stacks. Also, do you need 3 full actions to put them all out?
The "throw splash weapon" special attack is different from the "preparing to throw splash weapon" action.
The "preparing to throw" is referring to something like a flask of oil, which requires a full round to insert a fuse or wick, light it, and then throw it.
Something like alchemist's fire, which is intended to be a splash weapon to begin with, requires no preparation and is simply drawn and thrown. An alchemist's bombs work the same way.
It states "Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb" all happens in a single turn. Holy hell that's insane. He can MAKE a bomb, light it, and throw it, in 6 seconds? That just sounds off to me.
throwing a bomb is a standard action. Once he hita 8 he can take fast bombs and do more than one a round
that said just keep enemies spread out. A little energy resist goes a long way and you run out of bombs quickly
also you didn't mention this but remember that a crit w a bomb only adds another 1d6 of damage plus int
Unfortunately you can't always keep enemies apart, OR, they're too stupid to use tactics. At level 5, it just feels like a LOT of damage. Then again, he's squish as hell.
Also a CR appropriate encounter isn't really meant to be that hard, it's basically a random encounter. I have to wonder who the other party members are who can't handle a little more of a challenge.
But yeah, they're doing bombs exactly right, so no issues there.
They shred CR appropriate encounters. Its literally just free exp. I'm not trying to kill them every fight, mind you, but I'd like it to be a little more hair raising than "You are ambushed by 8 undead skeletons!" Two rounds later, "And they're all dead..."
Actually, the "prepare a splash weapon" action is for flasks of oil, not splash weapons such as alchemist's fire or acid. In other words, you can just chuck an alchemist's fire at the enemy without any prep work, but for the flask of oil to be effective, you have to rig it up to catch fire once it breaks.
As to the bomb's damage itself, the base damage is the same as a rogue's sneak attack, but without a weapon damage die on top, so they're not any more damaging than a good rogue who can reliably flank, and he has a limited number he can do per day (level plus Int mod). The only thing the bombs have over sneak attack (and bomb discoveries don't count, as the rogue gets rogue tricks for their sneak attacks) is the splash damage, which is the MINIMUM of the damage their bombs do (ie, a bomb that does 2d6+4 damage would do 6 splash damage, reflex for half).
If your players are trashing your encounters simply by virtue of having a barbarian and an alchemist, the players are NOT the problem, it's your encounters. There's more that can be done to make the encounters more challenging than simply upping the CR; look at what KINDS of threats you're throwing at them. If you're using typical meat-grinder encounters, yeah, those two are going to chew things up, but if you start throwing in terrain/lighting/whatever to hamper them, and spellcasters to capitalize on poor save bonuses, they'll have a LOT more problems. If the alchemist himself is chewing up more of the encounters than the barbarian, start throwing things with fire resistance at him.
For the first part, please read up. I still feel that 6 seconds is an unrealistic time to get components, make, and throw a bomb.
It isn't even the damage that bothers me as much as the fact that he NEVER has to worry about hitting allies. It takes away from the tactical side of things when he can just throw bombs wildly.
Also the random encounters were based on the module, so they're not MY encounters, per say. I did feel a lot better later on when they ran in to fire elementals and the alchemist was useless, but at the same time it sucks when your character can't do ANYTHING in a fight. (Been there.) I'm trying to understand, and work things out, so that everyone is having fun.
Yeah, he's correct. Splash weapon rules apply to things like crits (or the fact that splash weapons don't crit) and misses to determine where the splash weapon actually lands. If you up the CR, and your players are instantly dying, I can't help but think you're doing CRs wrong, or upping it by way too much. Upping the CR by 1 or 2 against a party that's steamrolling through every encounter shouldn't cause a wipe.
If you want to know how to make it harder, use tactics. Have your creatures spread out, use creatures or NPC enemies that make use of ranged tactics (a bomb can only be thrown 5 range increments, so that's a max of 100 feet) or even add some spellcasters in there. Find creatures that fit the CR you're looking for that have some energy resist, or energy immunities. Dretch are a good example. CR2 and resist acid/fire/cold 10. Along with the stinking cloud they can use as battlefield control, a small number of dretch can make for a very hard encounter.
As for your Barbarian... Barbarians do one thing well. They hit stuff. They hit stuff hard.
You want to challenge your players? Come up with better places for battles. Have enemies who use tactics just like your players do. Start off NPCs in advantageous positions. Make use of traps and ambushes.
Oh, also, what character creation rules are you using? Because keep in mind, book CR encounters are designed around groups that are using 15 point buy, and only have 4-5 players. If you upped the point buy at all, or have a larger group, then you need to edit the CR accordingly.
They're steamrolling through sheer damage. They have no tank, and can't take a hit. So either my monsters don't live long enough to get close, or THEY don't survive the fight at all. And its a LOT of undead, who aren't smart enough to use tactics. They're mindless with no int score. I play them that way, as its only fair. They target the nearest enemy and hit it til one side dies. Again, its probably more the module being s#!*tily written than anything. I've been hearing from other DM friends that it's pretty bad.
almost no consequences to the party.Also, remember that precise bombs does not apply on a miss, and eventually he will miss and land in the middle of the party.
Yeah everyone forgot about the miss rules. And when I read them again, and used them, the whole party had a s!@* fit about it. It was a long discussion explaining how they worked. But, it was nice to actually have a consequence.
Oh, also, what character creation rules are you using? Because keep in mind, book CR encounters are designed around groups that are using 15 point buy, and only have 4-5 players. If you upped the point buy at all, or have a larger group, then you need to edit the CR accordingly.
Also, number of encounters per day matters. If the party can rest after each fight, they can "go nova" and use all their best abilities, rather than needing to conserve them for later fights. That significantly ups their power.
I made both these mistakes with my Kingmaker group - really high stat buy (technically it was generated stat arrays, but they were really good ones), and Kingmaker does the one-fight-per-day by default. I countered by upping all the fights in some way.
4 players, 15 point buy, level 5 and 6. They are the appropriate sized group, and level, for the module. Luckily, the module is over, AND we're going to start Kingmaker. Woo!
Between the free precise bomb and the sheer damage output he's dealing, even with the level appropriate CR encounters, he and the barbarian are ending my encounters in a few rounds if I'm lucky with almost no consequences to the party.What I don't understand is, why is this a problem? Do you want to beat them? That's not really a healthy attitude for a GM to have. If they're having fun, them winning sounds like a fine outcome to me.
No, I want it to not be like walking through tissue paper. I hate handing over exp for nothing. The whole point is to earn it.
I think you should go take a look at what other classes are doing at the same level. I think you will find that he is pretty average. (It sounds like he is level 5, so about this point the wizard is getting his fireballs.)
He's out damaging the Barbarian, who is pretty peeved about it. Lmao.
It sounds like he's using his character class properly, sorry. Infact he might be giving you a break by not using alchemical weapons and the grenadier ability to strap them to arrows. That particular combination can get quite crazy.
However, if you're seeking solutions there is a fairly simple one. Bombs are a finite resource, the alchemist only gets so many each day. So a simple solution would be to increase the number of encounters per day and force the alchemist to consider limiting his bomb use a little.
Yeah I didn't know he had so many bombs per day. That was a relief. I also found out he hadn't been tracking them, so I came down on that.
You are actually really lucky he IS using bombs and he didn't go Vivisectionist melee on you!
He had just played, and gotten killed, as a rogue. I think he specifically wanted range, and he thinks the bombs are fun.
It states "Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb" all happens in a single turn. Holy hell that's insane. He can MAKE a bomb, light it, and throw it, in 6 seconds? That just sounds off to me.
There's really not a lot of components to it. It's a vial of premixed catalyst and then (what I've always envisioned) a separate vial with the 'active' components of whatever bomb effect the Alchemist wants.
Compare it to some other 'normal' classes and you'll see it's not that outlandish; a properly-built archer at 6th level should be letting fly with 4 arrows in 6 seconds (2 iterative attacks from BAB, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot) at 1d8 each (plus STR if he's got a compound bow, and magic bonus assuming he's gotten at least a +1 weapon).
I think about bombs like this. They are already mixed and ready, they are inert until he puts in a magical spark. Now does it work in 6 seconds? I mean he uses reagents not gunpowder.
as much as the idea of throwing cartoon bombs entertains me I don't think that is the idea.
|
|
How do they have a barbarian who can't tank? the raw number of hit points should make him a pretty heavy tank.
It sounds like they have an APL of 5-6. That means they should be facing CR 7-8 enemies. If they are shreding encounters or dieing either time, it means they have *all* built glass cannons, and they are relying on your reluctance to kill characters to stay alive.
The alchemist should have access to the shield spell and decent armor, he should be able to survive a certain amount of close combat.
I think you should go ahead and start throwing CR 7-8 enemies at them. Do it once the first evening, and let the entire party wipe. Then talk to them, say "look guys, this is the sort of thing that is up ahead. You really need to be prepared for defense. We are going to take that fight back, and I'll let you guys go back to town and figure out how to reequip your characters to add some defense."
I think people or over-rationalizing the process. The description mentions the alchemist imbuing the bomb with magic. Thus, "because magic" actually applies. The bomb's "fuse" is the little bit of magic the alchemist can manipulate to turn an otherwise inert vial of ick to something destructive.
The part that kinda hurts my head is just where the alchemist is storing all the core materials for the dozen+ bombs they have immediate access to (since there is no implication the alchemist ever needs to draw a bomb from a container). Just how large is each bomb, and how much should it weigh? Where does the alchemist get the shells for these bombs, since it's highly doubtful they are reusable. Personally, I try not to over-think it, but it does skirt the edge of implausibility.
The part that kinda hurts my head is just where the alchemist is storing all the core materials for the dozen+ bombs they have immediate access to (since there is no implication the alchemist ever needs to draw a bomb from a container). Just how large is each bomb, and how much should it weigh? Where does the alchemist get the shells for these bombs, since it's highly doubtful they are reusable. Personally, I try not to over-think it, but it does skirt the edge of implausibility.
Well, since the Alchemist is using magic to 'charge' the bomb, then the answer is: In his alchemist's kit (the class's equivalent to the spell component pouch). Want to make a smoke bomb? You take the catalyst and drop in a pinch of 'smokeweed'*, infuse it with magic, and boom - smoke bomb; perhaps burning 'smokeweed' wouldn't normally result in a huge cloud of smoke, but 'because magic' enhances its effects and makes it more potent than it normally would be.
*A completely made-up component material for the purposes of example
If he is causing that much problem send a bunch of monks with deflect arrows and evasion after him. He will likely not be able to hurt them.
For the first part, please read up. I still feel that 6 seconds is an unrealistic time to get components, make, and throw a bomb.
And it's literally physically impossible for a creature like a dragon to be able to fly (or, well, exist without collapsing under its own weight even). Magic changes a lot of things.
Note that Bombs are Su (stands for Supernatural, i.e. "beyond natural" i.e. "physics need not apply"), and the speed is justified in the actual text of the ability as stated above.
Don't try to apply logic to what is a fantasy realm, and more importantly, a GAME that relies on abstract concepts to function.
It isn't even the damage that bothers me as much as the fact that he NEVER has to worry about hitting allies. It takes away from the tactical side of things when he can just throw bombs wildly.
Unless he, you know...misses his target. Then everybody gets to take Splash damage.
And it's not any different than the Negative Energy channeling Cleric taking Selective Channel or a Wizard taking Selective Spell. Grenadier just happens to get Precise Bombs for "free", don't forget he gave up something to do it (Brew Potion, if I recall) that the base Alchemist has (the base Alchemist requiring a Discovery to get Precise Bombs).
Also the random encounters were based on the module, so they're not MY encounters, per se.
This doesn't mean you can't change them. And quite frankly modules and Adventure Paths are generally on the very easy side.
Especially if you're talking 8 skeletons (just regular ol' skeletons) at level 5. They're barely a threat in groups of 5+ at level 2, why would you expect 8 of them to be a threat at level 5?
The only difference is that without the Alchemist it would take LONGER to kill the skeletons, but it wouldn't really be any more DIFFICULT. Your Barbarian (if he's anything like mine was) should be able to oneshot a Skeleton a round. Just without the Alchemist it'd take him 8 rounds.
|
|
Expensive, yes...sorta. One dip in Wizard solves that with Abundant Ammunition. Is all about how careful you are.
Hm... evil question. Since abundant arrow (or the various weapon qualities like it) replace ammunition, would they replace an grenedier's infused ammo with more infused ammo?
2. Make them move, all that damage he is doing is when he is standing still to apply items to his missile. Thats a move action until level 5 and even after that its taking up time. Move him or her around with AOE effects that the fighter types shrug off.
3. Darkness works...just saying They need a clear line of site for all this fun.
Move is what my mount is for :) Also why I am a small character riding a medium mount. Also why I am considering getting Animal Ally and buying it a cloak of the Arachnid... :)
I am finding I really wish I had gone with the gnome racial trait that gives darkvision. Really a lot.
|
|
...snip discussion of damage versus resistance...
So even 5 fire resistance shuts this build down rather thoroughly yeah the 4d6 will get through, but thats it and they wasted about 50 gold for no reason at all.the 10 fire resistance most outsiders have cripples this concept to non usefulness. trust me been there, experienced that. ended up with a lot of gravity bow uses just to survive.
Oh yes, agree with this. Alchemist is the archetypal scattershot shotgun. Deadly against unarmored foes, useless against armor. In this case the armor is fire resist. If he has enough discoveries, he can shift his damage type, but it will massively drop his output, since a lot of his add ons (unstable accelerant for example) only apply to fire damage.
Hm... evil question. Since abundant arrow (or the various weapon qualities like it) replace ammunition, would they replace an grenedier's infused ammo with more infused ammo?
Expensive, yes...sorta. One dip in Wizard solves that with Abundant Ammunition. Is all about how careful you are.
I may be mistaken (probably am - I'm not seeing it now after a brief search), but I thought they recently stated that things like poisons and weapon blanches aren't 'copied' by Abundant Ammunition, so I would assume a grenadier's infused ammo would not copy the 'infusion' either.