Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I was going through chronicles today, and came across some errors.
The first was on a play of first steps one. The judge may me pay for a cure disease to get rid of the filth fever; but it is only ability damage not drain so it should go away at the end of the scenario anyways, shouldn't it? Since the judge told me I had to resolve it or drop the character, can I get a refund?
Second case was a play of We Be Goblins Too. The judge marked down 2 fame, but reading through the how-to-play, it looks only 1 is supposed to be awarded. Should I just cross off the 2 and put a 1?
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The first was on a play of first steps one. The judge may me pay for a cure disease to get rid of the filth fever; but it is only ability damage not drain so it should go away at the end of the scenario anyways, shouldn't it?
Diseases need to be resolved at the end of the session at the latest. Filth fever does CON damage, so it will be resolved by either being successfully resisted (with two consecutive saves), cured (e.g. with remove disease) or by death of the patient.
Diseases that damage abilities other than CON can only cause a coma at worst, but still need to be resolved; there was some argument in the past as to whether it could be assumed that the PC would eventually make the required saves, or if they needed to be rolled out or magically cured if the time left in the session (and the GM's patience) had run out.
Once the disease is dealt with, all ability score damage will be gone before the next scenario.
Since the judge told me I had to resolve it or drop the character, can I get a refund?
In your case I'd leave it be, as if you try to retcon it and make the saves yourself, your PC might die! Or when you resort to remove disease after all, you might fail the caster level check, and be worse off than when you started...
Second case was a play of We Be Goblins Too. The judge marked down 2 fame, but reading through the how-to-play, it looks only 1 is supposed to be awarded. Should I just cross off the 2 and put a 1?
I can't see what harm it would do, as WBG! always awards 1 prestige. You might want to get your next GM to initial it.
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1. Yes. You paid for something you didn't need because a GM was confused; I would go ahead and add that gold to the next sheet with a note explaining what you were fixing.
So you would just take it for granted that he would have made the necessary consecutive saving throws? That seems like a big assumption.
I know someone who paid for a remove disease when he was down to his last couple of points of CON from that scenario...
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From the Guide:
Conditions, Death, and Expendables
When playing your own character, all conditions (including death) not resolved within the scenario or module must be resolved by the end of the adventure. Likewise, any wealth spent or resources expended during the course of the adventure are tracked and must be recorded on the Chronicle sheet.
All conditions gained during an adventure, except for permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the session; if these are not resolved the character should be
reported as ‘dead.’ Permanent negative levels, ability drain, and non-mechanical conditions being carried over to the next session should be recorded under the Notes section of the Chronicle sheet. An unplayable character should be marked as dead when reporting the session. See additional rules under Dealing with Afflictions in Chapter 7.
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CON damage isn't the exception. Any disease needs to be resolved by the end of the scenario.
Right, but when does the scenario end? If your character heads back to town and plunks himself down into bed for a non con draining disease he WILL eventually recover. The funky unlimited time between scenarios means he'll get 2 natural 20's in a row eventually in the unlikely event that that's what he needs and then recover the ability damage.
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CON damage isn't the exception. Any disease needs to be resolved by the end of the scenario.Right, but when does the scenario end? If your character heads back to town and plunks himself down into bed for a non con draining disease he WILL eventually recover. The funky unlimited time between scenarios means he'll get 2 natural 20's in a row eventually in the unlikely event that that's what he needs and then recover the ability damage.
This was the old argument. The guide is exceptionally clear. No exceptions. Clear any disease before the end of a session. Hand waving it is not an option.
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Actually, you don't have infinite saves against non-Con damage.
Here is why if your GM decides to take it to the n'th degree, for argument's sake.
When you reach 0 on an ability score, you immediately fall unconscious and become helpless. Being unconscious you can no longer feed or drink for yourself. After a day without water, you start taking non-lethal damage. Take enough non-lethal damage, you take real damage. Take enough real damage, you die.*
Same thing happens if you don't eat after three days as well.
So you have to roll out those saves until you reach 0 in said ability score. Once you reach 0 you need to make arrangements for somebody (fellow Pathfinder?) to take care of you. Now if you are near a Pathfinder Lodge, this can surly be handwaved. If not (like the Worldwound), then somebody is going to have to pay (using your gold or his) for food, water, & lodging, and then stay and take care of you, spending the same amount of coin.
The scenario is not over until all conditions are cleared, so you have to play it out until you recover or you die.
Characters might find themselves without food or water and with no means to obtain them. In normal climates, Medium characters need at least a gallon of fluids and about a pound of decent food per day to avoid starvation. (Small characters need half as much.) In very hot climates, characters need two or three times as much water to avoid dehydration.
A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Characters that take an amount of nonlethal damage equal to their total hit points begin to take lethal damage instead.
A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Characters that take an amount of nonlethal damage equal to their total hit points begin to take lethal damage instead.
Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.
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CON damage isn't the exception. Any disease needs to be resolved by the end of the scenario.Correct.
That said, if the disease can't kill you, you get infinite saves against it; if you get infinite saves, it's impossible for you to NOT recover from it naturally, so you can just consider it automatically resolved at the end of the session, to save time.
If the disease CAN kill you, then you have a finite number of attempts to recover, and as such you actually need to go through resolving the darned thing according to the rules.
That's the old argument. In PFS a coma is considered death. Handwaving because some ambiguous amount of infinite possible rolls is cheating.
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Actually, you don't have infinite saves against non-Con damage.
Here is why if your GM decides to take it to the n'th degree for argument's sake.
When you reach 0 on an ability score, you immediately fall unconscious and become helpless. Being unconscious you can no longer feed or drink for yourself. After a day without water, you start taking non-lethal damage. Take enough non-lethal damage, you take real damage. Take enough real damage, you die.*
Same thing happens if you don't eat after three days as well.
So you have to roll out those saves until you reach 0 in said ability score. Once you reach 0 you need to make arrangements for somebody (fellow Pathfinder?) to take care of you. Now if you are near a Pathfinder Lodge, this can surly be handwaved. If not (like the Worldwound), then somebody is going to have to pay (using your gold or his) for food, water, & lodging, and then stay and take care of you, spending the same amount of coin.
The scenario is not over until all conditions are cleared, so you have to play it out until you recover or you die.
** spoiler omitted **...
And if time is an issue because the venue closes in 10 minutes and the GM doesn't have time to resolve on the sidewalk, then purchase spellcasting services. Or the GM marks you dead.
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That's the old argument. In PFS a coma is considered death. Handwaving because some ambiguous amount of infinite possible rolls is cheating.CON damage isn't the exception. Any disease needs to be resolved by the end of the scenario.Correct.
That said, if the disease can't kill you, you get infinite saves against it; if you get infinite saves, it's impossible for you to NOT recover from it naturally, so you can just consider it automatically resolved at the end of the session, to save time.
If the disease CAN kill you, then you have a finite number of attempts to recover, and as such you actually need to go through resolving the darned thing according to the rules.
I can't seem to find the clarification for this in the guide or on the boards. Mind pointing out where this is?
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As was pointed out to me on another thread about ability damage, Dex damage won't render you unconscious, you just lose the ability to move. Doesn't make a big difference, except that your PC then is aware of slowly dying from dehydration and starvation, instead of having a peaceful time sliding into death. Heh.
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Right, but according to the Guide as written, it seems that waiting for someone to make their save for a non-CON disease is a legitimate way to resolve a disease. I don't understand this argument that handwaving because you'll eventually make your save isn't a resolution, which is why I'm asking where this clarification is.
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In D&D 3.x, yes that is correct kinevon. Not in Pathfinder.
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Iammars, the clarification is under typing "disease" in the Pathfinder Society forum search.
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Iammars, the clarification is under typing "disease" in the Pathfinder Society forum search.
This is the only thing I can find on the topic, and that seems to okay handwaving back in the Josh Frost-era. There's another thread where Andrew Christian argues fervently against handwaving, but there is no clarification. If there is a clarification where what Andrew is saying is illegal, I can't seem to find it, which is why I asked what where the link is.
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If wanting to hold to the strict letter of the law that something like this must be cleared prior to the end of the scenario, I would feel quite obligated as a GM trying to abide by the "don't be a jerk" rule to let the PC (possibly with a bedside friend forcing nutrients) to roll this out indefinitely at home until the condition was cleared. To declare "scenario over" while others are still wanting to take actions seems very rude and of benefit to no one. For the argument of lack of time, I can't imagine someone power rolling who wouldn't make this happen by the time I finished with the chronicle sheets.
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If the disease itself is no threat, then why do many scenarios that take place over one day or less include diseases that have a minimum incubation time of one day? By your logic, those diseases can never be a threat and just take up space in the scenario.
Because they're part of monsters that the author wants to use for their other abilities?
Because they exist as part of the world and if we never saw them it would be weird?To make that one disease scenario more special?
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I do not see ambiguity in the Guide.
"When playing your own character, all conditions (including death) not resolved within the scenario or module must be resolved by the end of the adventure. All conditions gained during an adventure, except for permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the session; if these are not resolved the character should be reported as ‘dead.’"
Does that say, "give the PCs a few days to see if they can overcome filth fever"? No. It says "before the end of the session". For anyone who's run a session before, there is very clearly an end. Often times it's even labeled "CONCLUSION" for you convenience. That is where the session ends. If you have a disease by this time, and you choose not to cure it, you are reported as dead.
Some scenarios may give you days to attempt a save. Others may not. But to simply claim that "eventually they'll save, therefore it doesn't matter" is quiet clearly the definition of "handwaving".
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Some scenarios may give you days to attempt a save. Others may not. But to simply claim that "eventually they'll save, therefore it doesn't matter" is quiet clearly the definition of "handwaving".
Pardon me for thinking that in a game whose entire selling point is the ability to do anything you want rather than being limited to a drop down menu that the heroes might choose to do the same thing I do when sick: get a bowl of chicken soup and curl up in bed.
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Some scenarios may give you days to attempt a save. Others may not. But to simply claim that "eventually they'll save, therefore it doesn't matter" is quiet clearly the definition of "handwaving".
Pardon me for thinking that in a game whose entire selling point is the ability to do anything you want rather than being limited to a drop down menu that the heroes might choose to do the same thing I do when sick: get a bowl of chicken soup and curl up in bed.
While in general this is absolutely true in a game like PF, I am ok (not happy but I accept it) with a certain amount of this kind of gameist mechanics over logic in PFS specifically.
There is a lot of immersion and persistability that you lose in organized play compared with a real game, which is fine because that is the price of having an organized play environment.
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I do not see ambiguity in the Guide.
"When playing your own character, all conditions (including death) not resolved within the scenario or module must be resolved by the end of the adventure. All conditions gained during an adventure, except for permanent negative levels, ability drain that does not reduce an ability score to 0, and conditions that provide no mechanical effect, must be resolved before the end of the session; if these are not resolved the character should be reported as ‘dead.’"
As somebody who argued fervently against Andrew when this came up a few years ago and still think the whole decision is silly (if you get a GM that refuses to stick around to let you roll 100x to get better) I must also confirm that Nefreet posted and what Andrew is saying is correct. The intent, and the wording is very clear - you must eliminate ALL conditions (including stat damage) before you walk away from the table. If a GM says "I'm leaving" after two rolls, you'll have to pay.
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There is a lot of immersion and persistability that you lose in organized play compared with a real game, which is fine because that is the price of having an organized play environment.
Bob the fighter: "dammit, I got infected with rabies again"
Dan the druid: "Don't worry, I can memorize a boat load of cure disease spells tomorrow, you'll be fine"
Bob: NO!!!! It has to come off now or they'll kick me out of the society!!
Dan: "ermm.. you're not even going to show symptoms for a month
Bob: but it has to come off now!
Dan: BEFORE you even get any symptoms? How do they even know you're sick? YOU don't know you're sick. I'm standing right here taking your pulse and I can't even tell you're sick
Bob: they just know man.. they just know.... same way they used to know about the mummies left toe in tombs no ones been in in a thousand years..
Or better yet
"... why are we still doing CPR on that demon? Its been 12 hours"
"Well, the scenario ends when he 1..2....3...4. dies so we need to get back into town breath.. breath and get this curse removed before he 1 2 3 4 kicks it or we're considered dead.
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This is the only thing I can find on the topic, and that seems to okay handwaving back in the Josh Frost-era. There's another thread where Andrew Christian argues fervently against handwaving, but there is no clarification. If there is a clarification where what Andrew is saying is illegal, I can't seem to find it, which is why I asked what where the link is.
Iammars, the clarification is under typing "disease" in the Pathfinder Society forum search.
Its in the Guide. Why do you need clarification from something that's abundantly clear?
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You don't heal ability damage while still sick.
So you either plateau or get worse.
Additionally, if someone in the party has remove disease, I usually let it go, because they can cast it over and over.
But I'm not sitting there for 100 or more rolls, when remove disease costs 150gp.
Spend the cash or die.
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You don't heal ability damage while still sick.
Spend the cash or die.
Well, that's certainly a harsh way of putting it.
To me, this conversation has made things more complicated than it needs to be. If you need to clear a condition, such as disease, it's pretty simple:
1. Have a PC with remove disease cast it until the affliction is removed.
2. Spend the money to have it removed by purchasing NPC spellcasting services.
3. Roll it out until it is entirely cleared.
Now, I get that Option 3 isn't always the most preferable, in part because it could take more time than available. But, as a sign of good will, a GM should at least let the player take a few minutes (5, maybe?) to attempt to roll out of it and, at that point, tell the player, "sorry, you didn't make it. At this point, you can spend the money to clear it or I mark your character as dead." There is no reason the GM can't at least give that player a few minutes to try.
I won't handwave it away. Why? Because to do so is akin to letting them take 10 or take 20 on those rolls, which they would not be able to do under other circumstances. The premise behind taking 10 and taking 20 is that it presumes, mathematically, that the player will eventually roll a 10 or a 20. That's all well and good, except when there is a penalty for failure, as there is here. So, I can't just handwave it away just because, statistically, they could get those rolls. They couldn't take 10 or take 20 in a non-PFS game, I'm not going to let them do it here.
Mark
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Sort of off-topic, but I'll throw it in there anyway...
All this angst could be done away with by the campaign simply stating there's a finite amount of time that passes between scenarios. Let's say a week. So you have a week to clear conditions, craft alchemical items, etc before the next mission begins. Heck, it would be a lot more interesting to have PCs suffering from ghoul fever wandering around on missions, but I digress. The origin of this whole time-between-missions-has-no-limit idea came from an earlier campaign coordinator who didn't want the campaign getting too complicated. He just said we have as much time as we need. This had unforeseen complications. Time in PFS needs to be defined.
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1) The session is over when the GM signs the chronicles and says, "See ya next time!"
2) If the session runs right up to the end of the time where the Venue is about to kick you out (which is a real problem that many, many, many folks complain about), then you may barely have time to sign the chronicles and clean up to leave. There may not be 5 minutes to roll out saving throws.
3) I'm willing to be lenient and favorful to the player, however there is a limit. I won't waste my time sitting there while they roll 100 or 1000 times. At some point, a line has to be drawn that says, "sorry, you gotta pay for it. I haven't eaten all day and need to get dinner."
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You don't heal ability damage while still sick.
So you either plateau or get worse.
Additionally, if someone in the party has remove disease, I usually let it go, because they can cast it over and over.
But I'm not sitting there for 100 or more rolls, when remove disease costs 150gp.
Spend the cash or die.
I'd like to point out that remove disease doesn't auto cure the disease, it also involves a roll.
Rolling dice is for when the outcome is in doubt. If the disease is non-fatal, (most commonly being a disease that only does non-CON stat damage) there is no doubt to the outcome. Even without remove disease they will eventually get better and eventually recover from the stat damage.
Saying that the only way to remove the disease freely is to sit there and make the 400 rolls needed but then tell the player that you aren't willing to wait for them to do so and then instead charge them 150gp for remove disease seems ludicrous to me.
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You don't heal ability damage while still sick.
So you either plateau or get worse.
Additionally, if someone in the party has remove disease, I usually let it go, because they can cast it over and over.
But I'm not sitting there for 100 or more rolls, when remove disease costs 150gp.
Spend the cash or die.
I'd like to point out that remove disease doesn't auto cure the disease, it also involves a roll.
Rolling dice is for when the outcome is in doubt. If the disease is non-fatal, (most commonly being a disease that only does non-CON stat damage) there is no doubt to the outcome. Even without remove disease they will eventually get better and eventually recover from the stat damage.
Saying that the only way to remove the disease freely is to sit there and make the 400 rolls needed but then tell the player that you aren't willing to wait for them to do so and then instead charge them 150gp for remove disease seems ludicrous to me.
The outcome is in doubt. If you go into a coma because a stat hits 0, you could die.
Mike has made a determination by the way the new rule is written, that you have to clear the condition. Specifically he did this after that huge argument about it over a year ago. I don't recall if the new rule came about in Guide 4.2 or 4.3, but it came about prior to guide 5.0.
I don't even know why we are having this argument anymore.
Handwaving non-CON damage diseases is cheating. Its not allowed. That's why the rule in the guide changed, because those diseases should mean something if they are put into a scenario. Currently with the way scenarios work, diseases rarely even hit their incubation stage. And as such, it makes those diseases meaningless if you just handwave them.
I think it is silly for you to handwave something that the author put into a scenario.
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Andrew: Some unscrupulous GMs, though, might take that as a free pass to allow, say, 1 or 2 saves, then mark the character as dead.
How? They can pay 150gp to try with a minimum caster level spellcasting services. Roll a d20 with a +5. Or you could buy caster level services at a high enough caster level to ensure the save is made. Level 10 caster for remove disease is only 300gp.
Even a tier 1-2 scenario can afford that with the money gained from the scenario.
Why is paying for it that big of a deal?
And if a GM is being "unscrupulous" like that, that's a different issue that has nothing to do with this rule.