Summoner Eidolon : Charge + Reach evolution + Pounce evolution

[Yoyojo]

So, I have 4 natural attacks in my "full attack" on my Eidolon.
I have the pounce evolution, AND the reach evolution with JUST ONE of those 4 attacks.

Now, charge says "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent."

My DM is trying to rule that because one of my attacks has reach, I must stop at the range that is outside of the remaining attacks reach, making pounce worthless. Since all remaining natural attacks only have range 5, instead of the 10 that my Gore has.

However, I feel like this goes against the spirit of the pounce evolution (RAI). Pounce reads the following:

"An eidolon gains quick reflexes, allowing it to make a full attack after a charge. This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form."

"Full attack" and "Attack" are both listed as separate types of actions with their own blocks of the "Combat" chapter (same place charge is at). They contain separate traits and features in the rule book, this sort of points to full attacks and the normal kind of attack (although these may be poorly worded / named) being completely different actions with different restrictions (duh?).

Since they seem to be different, and the verbage for Charge doesnt specify that a full attack must also be done from the same reach as an attack, one should assume that if you are performing a full attack, it would be done at the range a full attack is capable of being performed at.

I claim that where charge SAYS "You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." due to my evolution it should NOW (for my Eidolon anyway) say "You must move to the closest space from which you can full attack the opponent." unless of course I am not intending to utilize pounce and instead intend to just use a normal attack (stead of full attack), at which point I MUST attack at the range of 10.

However, he disagrees and is making my reach evolution nullify pounce. I find this bogus. RAI vs RAW? Or does my interpretation (bias though it may be) work also?

Can anyone provide more context or opinions or facts?

[FlySkyHigh]

I feel like your GM is attempting to, for lack of a better term, f*&% you over. Honestly, if you are trying to charge in and pounce, you should get the full attack. If the gm continues to do this, I would recommend simply removing the reach evolution, and let you take your full pounce even by his standards.

So yeah, that ruling is pretty bogus, but unfortunately you need to work around your GM's ruling if he refuses to back down.

[Ravingdork]

Though your GM is right per the RAW, that is clearly not the intent. Knights with lances on horses have the exact same problem (their lances are 10 feet, but their mounts' attacks are only 5 feet). The game developers have even said as much. They've even gone so far as to say "ignore that bit of the charge text." Why? Because it completely prevents other things like Ride-By Attack from working as they should.

Hopefully, someone will be able to find a direct link for you to share with your GM.

EDIT:
Here are some semi-relevant links.
[LINK #1]
[LINK #2]
[LINK #3]
[LINK #4]
[LINK #5] - PLEASE FAQ THIS POST!!!

[Yoyojo]

That would be awesome, a link from devs would add a good bit of credibility.

Thanks for the responses.

[FlySkyHigh]

I would also say that if your gm intends on cheesing you to try and nerf the damage, you could cheese back by angling your attack. I.E. force a situation where you'd only be within 5 feet by the time you could attack him.

Recall that in Pathfinder, diagonal squares move on alternating increments of 5-10-5-etc feet. So a square directly diagonal from your space is five, but the next diagonal in a row is 15 feet. You could charge on a diagonal, and you wouldn't be able to attack until you were directly beside the opponent, and then you get a full pounce ;3.

[Yoyojo]

Well the reach of the attack is independent of the range to moving, and I would be unable to use a corner in such a way that i could only be in range AT the 5 feet mark because i wouldnt be able to charge if there was a corner there, since it would count as an obstacle.

Right?

[Claxon]

I second what Ravingdork said. By RAW, your GM is right. By RAI, he's being a jerk.

[FlySkyHigh]

I'm not necessarily referring to obstacles or corners, but in an open area in which you could choose your angle of attack. I.E. 0 being the target, all others being the distance from the target. If you were to come in at an angle (top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right) see how the distance spikes from 15 to 5 in a single step. In order to get close enough to attack, coming in directly at an angle would net you the benefit of landing only 5 feet away, and being able to full attack. And yes, I in fact agree, RAI the gm's a jerk, RAW he's (unfortunately) correct. Hopefully your GM will come around.

15 10 10 10 15
10 5 5 5 10
10 5 0 5 10
10 5 5 5 10
15 10 10 10 15

[David knott 242]

One obvious workaround is to withhold the Gore attack -- then you have only a five foot reach for the attacks that you are using. I have done that frequently -- of course, since my eidolon is not a quadruped and thus cannot take the pounce evolution, I lose nothing by doing this.

[Rushley son of Halum]

FlySkyHigh wrote:

I would also say that if your gm intends on cheesing you to try and nerf the damage, you could cheese back by angling your attack. I.E. force a situation where you'd only be within 5 feet by the time you could attack him.

Recall that in Pathfinder, diagonal squares move on alternating increments of 5-10-5-etc feet. So a square directly diagonal from your space is five, but the next diagonal in a row is 15 feet. You could charge on a diagonal, and you wouldn't be able to attack until you were directly beside the opponent, and then you get a full pounce ;3.

No one with common sense uses this bit of nonsense. Reach is a cube. That little corner of the game who try to perpetuate this lunacy are frankly just ruining things.

Using those links should get you around it. There's a clear precedent for pounce and similar abilities getting around the problem you're having.

[HangarFlying]

Don't forget, natural attacks threaten throughout the entire range, so a creature may choose to withhold the reach, thus allowing it to pounce without issue.