Per the Core Rule Book: "You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack."
Both of those options do not allow full attacks. Therefore, you can never make more than one attack using this feat. It never provokes (from the target) because Improved Bull Rush is a prerequisite and that feat lets you Bull Rush without provoking an AoO from the target - although you might end up moving past other enemies which would provoke normally).
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I think partyrico's question was about how the feat Merciless Rush interacts with abilities that give you more opportunities to Bull Rush in a single round. Specifically mentioning Shield Slam, but there is also Quick Bull Rush.
The way I look at it, this feat operates like Overrun, only using Bull Rush to accomplish the effect and providing a trample if you desire upon success.
DM_Blake is correct, I believe, that you do not provoke from your bull rush and move through. If other opponents threaten the squares you are moving through then I am fairly certain it does provoke.
As for movement, based on other abilities that interact with movement I believe it counts towards your maximum movement for the round. If you are taking a full round action then you could only move 5' which is not enough to move through. If you are charging or taking a standard action then there is movement available to keep going. The real shenanigans occur when you start looking into combinations with the Mobile Fighter and pounce etc.
If you're looking to Bull Rush/Trample your way through enemy ranks you need to make sure that you have abilities to: Attack more than once, make more than one Bull Rush attempt, Move and maintain those attacks.
OK, this could be a bit of a gray area, but I think the RAI is obvious enough to draw conclusions:
1. Normally BullRush does not require a shield and does not involve hitting a foe with a shield
2. The intent of this feat is to "Slam" someone with your shield hard enough to knock them backward.
3. They used the CMB mechanic paired with the BullRush maneuver for simplification.
4. With a normal BullRush you are slamming them with your body. Merciless Rush allows you to slam through their space and trample them rather than knocking them back.
5. They do not intend for you to automatically move with Shield Slam because they included the line at the end of the feat about using your 5' move or your move action.
6. So you do not and cannot automatically move around the battlefield by using Shield Slam and Merciful Rush together. But you do have the option of which one to use, and you could even do a Shield Slam and use your fre Bull Rush to knock the enemy back, then choose to use your 5' move to follow them and keep attacking.
7. You cannot use a 5' move in the same round that you move.
8. It says you must use a "Move Action" to move with Shield Slam. Taking a Move Action after you begin an attack, even a full attack, ends your attacks.
9. Therefore, if you try to use this against one foe multiple times, you will get at most two slams - you will either slam once, bullrush him back, follow him, and slam him again, or you will slam once, bullrush/trample him, and slam again. Either way, if your second slam moves your enemy (you cannot trample twice), he will be out of reach and you cannot follow him a second time - if you want more than two attacks, then you can still only slam bullrush/trample once during that sequence.
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looks like you it a gray area that was not expected by the rules. GM teritory I would have to rule this free movement through targets square to the one behind him much like step up, following step and side step feats. Becasue you would still beable to do this if you moved up to a creature move action 30ft then bull rush as standard action. you could still choose to go through the creature. it part of the bullrush now, not part of move action. much like bull rushing a creature back 20ft does not use the creature movement.
I really don't agree with that interpretation. Think of the sheer volume of free movement. To make the example I'm going to use a (not terribly) absurd case: The Dual-Wielding Shield Slammer, with Pounce!
At high levels, with TWF feats we're looking at 7 shield attacks per turn. If this character received free movement from Merciless Rush, then he could line the enemies up in a hall, charge the first, and then proceed to get 70 feet of free movement and attacks on enemies he would not be able to reach otherwise.
Hallway squares = .
Badguys = O
Trampled Badguys = T
DWSSwP = )
Roll for initiative - Shield Slammer wins
.)...........O.O.O.O.O.O.O...
Charge action (with Pounce!)
............)O.O.O.O.O.O.O...
Merciless Rush Move Through
.............T)O.O.O.O.O.O...
Oh Look! New enemy!
.............T.T)O.O.O.O.O...
Oh Look! New enemy!
.............T.T.T)O.O.O.O...
Until Eventually
.............T.T.T.T.T.T.T)..
As my brilliant ascii demonstrates...it would be ridiculous.
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9. Therefore, if you try to use this against one foe multiple times, you will get at most two slams - you will either slam once, bullrush him back, follow him, and slam him again, or you will slam once, bullrush/trample him, and slam again. Either way, if your second slam moves your enemy (you cannot trample twice), he will be out of reach and you cannot follow him a second time - if you want more than two attacks, then you can still only slam bullrush/trample once during that sequence.
This is only true for some character builds.
Rapid Attack (Ex)
At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full-attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
This ability replaces armor training 3.
Combine that with something to grant +move and you have the chance to do a lot of Merciless Rushing.
So if I use my move action to move up to the enemy, then use a standard action bull rush, can I still trample?
Similarly if I 5-foot-step to the enemy and bull rush can I still trample?
I wouldn't allow it at all. But then I fold a whole lot of my interpreted RAI into the rules. Shield Slam is what it says - hitting someone so hard with your shield that you knock them away from you. Merciless Rush allows you to move through their space and trample them. You cannot move through the space of someone who is flying backward away from you after your Shield Slam. In my opinion, the two concepts are mutually exclusive.
But my opinion is not RAW.
Shield Slam says: "You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn."
Now your Shield Slam grants you a free Bull Rush maneuver and your Merciless Rush says you can move through their square, but it deosn't say this movement is free nor does it say it allows you to exceed the movement you could normally make in a round. Since it does NOT say such things, then it does not allow such things.
Therefore, you get one Move action and a Standard Attack (only one attack) or you get one 5'Move and a Full attack, but the normal rules of combat say you cannot move in the same round you take a 5'Move, so if you use any movement at all to step up to an enemy, you have used all of your movement for the round, which means you can Shild Slam him away from you but you cannot follow him or trample him.
If you start your round next to an enemy, you could Slam/BullRush and choose to trample instead of moving the enemy. But you would have to move 10' to get through his square so you cannot 5'Step (if you did, you would end your trample IN HIS SPACE which is not allowed). As soon as you move, your attacks end, so you would only get one attack. If you tried to hit him twice and do your trample after the second hit, your GM should tell you that you cannot trample him because you took a Full Attack action so you have no movement left except a 5'Move which is too short to trample.
This is only true for some character builds.
Combine that with something to grant +move and you have the chance to do a lot of Merciless Rushing.Rapid Attack (Ex)
At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full-attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
This ability replaces armor training 3.
Fair enough. I was describing the general rules applied to the two feats in question. Clearly, there are achetypes that have their own specific rules that combine differently, but those are the exception, not the rule.
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Being able to add 70' of movement is significant. Especially considering each step of that extra movement knocked the enemy prone. Suppose this character also had Vicious Stomp and Boar Style to add bleed effects and stomp as an AoO. Each of the seven targets would take a melee hit damage, bonus trample damage, AoO stomp and then have a bleed effect all while falling prone and giving you free movement. Whether that specifically churns out more DPR than a Paladin using Smite is not the point, also it is exactly as bad if not worse than the Trip feats because the foe still ends up on the ground, you took no risk of falling yourself or losing your weapon to get it there, and you got to deal damage when you did it. Also, with Combat Reflexes you can Shield Slam as your Attack of Opportunity, getting the free Bull Rush/Move Through and some movement on the opponent's turn (assuming you didn't use up all your AoO's on Vicious Stomp.) It's not inconsequential as a tactic, and less situational than you infer.
Back on target: Bottom line, moving for free when it is not expressly written is like suggesting Tarrasques instantly dies if you land a called shot to their toe with a lich's phylactery. After all, rules do not say that doesn't happen. However, it's not reasonable to assume it will or should.
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It does not knock them prone it just does trample damage which is str mod. where does it say it knocks you prone. it does no such thing at all it does it let you move through an occupied square you are not over running the target. This is equally to slamming into someone moving past them and stepping on there foot in the process that is it.
The falling prone feature was from Overrun. I got it confused and should have pulled it up sooner to verify. My mistake. Thanks for pointing this out. That does reduce the potential abuse of a Mobile Fighter with Merciless Rush and movement buffs if someone were allowed to have free movement from the move through aspect of Merciless Rush.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
this attack draws and AOO which can be used to trip you ending your turn. It does not grant you any AOO. where are you getting all this extra stuff from. That does not happen.
You need Improved Bull Rush to take this feat, which eliminates the AoO for using Bull Rush. On this same theme, when you get an attack of opportunity you may choose to use your shield to Shield Bash, which means you can use Shield Slam and provide a free Bull Rush attempt. It's about the how the abilities interact.
the feat tell you exactly what it does, if you score over 5 on the targets cmd, you can move through their square do extra str mod damage. it does not say free movement or limit movement like the actual shield bash feat. It is implied in the wording this is the effect of the feat moving through the square and doing the str mod damage.
The wording does not imply you get extra, free, or no cost movement to complete the move through portion of the wording. It states you can choose to move through. That choice is made for you if you do not have enough movement.
how are you adding 70ft of movement? only 4 attacks in a full attack at level 20. 10ft for each attack. which every one draw an AOO on you. because you have to leave a threaten square. If improved bull rush was not a Prerequisites for this feat you would be draw 2 every time you did it.
Lots of parts you missed out on what is going on. Two-Weapon Fighting chain adds 3 attacks. Shield Mastery drops the penalties for TWF with a shield (which lead to more than one thread talking about dual-wielding Shields to get the accuracy boost. Which helps when using shield slam to bull rush and taking your Attack Bonus instead of CMB on that roll.)
I am not adding 70'. I was responding to remarks that being able to move through as free movement was not only incorrect, it led to some absurd scenarios. I feel I was pretty clear stating my negative position when I said:
I really don't agree with that interpretation. <Explanation as to why followed>
I will endeavor to be more clear in the future.
As for the AoO, the archetype that I was using to paint my example with, as well as any character who plans on moving and attacking much would have an excellent defense against AoO with various feats, skills, and equipment. They may not be inconsequential, but the significance of the threat is greatly reduced.
you are also assuming you hit every time and beat cmd every time. That is not likely also this can't be done to creatures two size larger then you. which makes it even more situational and weaker.
Yes, that is the downside of any CMB based build. However, with Enlarge the opportunities to make good on this are greatly increased. Also, Shield Slam uses your Attack Bonus in place of your CMB which makes this more effective than Tripping. Sure, gargantuan creatures are right out. That type of barrier exists for every combat maneuver character.
yes you could use it on and aoo and use it to maybe get your self out of flank on an aoo. but a regular bull rush is better as you can push the target away deny them full attack option every round.
hmm lets see I have an AOO do push the target +10ft away denying him the ability to attack this round and full attack the next round, or the next or do I move through his square let him AOO me and then full attack next round for whats my str mod 5 point of damage. DU! you push him away. It is honestly a horrible waste of a feat, only shining point is does have a little tactical use.
To reiterate a missing connection: I am not advocating for or against Merciless Rush. There has been a serious loss of communication if you think that's what's going on in here. I'm just pointing out it can be done in combination with free movement to pass through to get even more absurd free moves out of the feat. Free movement to pass through is something I vehemently disagree with; both from a rules as written standpoint and effects in game standpoint. I am defending the feasibility of Bull Rush as a combat maneuver, especially with shields. I don't think it's your best overall approach to every tactical situation, but it makes a good tool in your toolkit if you use a shield. I do not think AoO is the best application, mostly because you need reach for it to be commonly brought into play. If you could, though, and you had Pounce from somewhere, then knocking an enemy back far enough to charge on your turn is actually pretty great.
Bull Rush is not utter crap, especially since I can knock a guy into other guys and knock all of them back. I can do this with readied actions and delayed actions in order to make brilliant use out of pushing back entire lines of mooks or to screw with opponents using short ranged abilities. Also, nobody is immune to Bull Rush outright, just those of a certain size larger which can be manipulated to some extent. This presents a soft ceiling for use, but not one all that different from Sneak Attack which has a hard ceiling: there are creature types it is incapable of effecting. (I might even argue Sneak Attack has a lower ceiling for use because of that but that's not really a discussion worth derailing this thread over.)
The hard reality is that damage is the easiest effect to create in Pathfinder. This is why most characters get optimized for damage per turn. It's actually just more effective in more cases. The limitations on combat maneuvers provide an inherent disadvantage that must be overcome. The results can be spectacular in situations where the combat maneuver is applicable, and most maneuver builds are about maximizing opportunities to use your maneuvers and the effectiveness of them when you do.
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It is pretty clear we disagree strongly. There are some key points to my position I do not think you have realized. However, since it also looks like we're covering the same ground again I'm willing to let it drop with the understanding that you can run your games however you prefer. My take on the rules is not required for you to behave how you will at your table.
I have taken some time to try to identify the specific areas of lost communication and to refine the points. Hopefully with more clarity. So...
This feat still draws and AOO.
Incorrect. Your movement, should you choose to accept it, draws an AoO. Using the feat is using a Bull Rush attempt. Improved Bull Rush eliminates the attack of opportunity for making a Bull Rush attempt. Improved Bull Rush is requisite for Merciless Rush, which is a feat that odds options to the Bull Rush combat maneuver. It is quoted at the top of this thread by partyrico, when he began the discussion.
ok lets say if you are correct in this feat does no provoke for movement on the creature you bull rush.
I did not make that claim I said the risk of those attacks landing was low on a character built to take advantage of this tactic. Too many feats and skills can be used to circumvent AoO.
remember it not the bull rush attack cause the AOO it is the movement.
But at the top of your post you just said... oh nevermind.
as far as two weapon fighting is you still only get 4 attacks with this weaponDual-wielding Shield Slammer I'm sorry, I thought I was clear:
Two-Weapon Fighting chain adds 3 attacks. Shield Mastery drops the penalties for TWF with a shield (which lead to more than one thread talking about dual-wielding Shields to get the accuracy boost. Which helps when using shield slam to bull rush and taking your Attack Bonus instead of CMB on that roll.)
So, as you hopefully now can see, with a shield equipped in both hands it becomes 7 shield slams.
I suggest the feat is grant free movement, because you are moving in place of the targets movement caused by the bull rush.Incorrect. To begin with, movement is an optional component of Bull Rush already.
You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so.
You'll notice the language explicitly states you get to move if you have the movement, your target has no choice. Spells and feats which push or knock opponents back do not give you that movement unless explicitly stated, and I cannot think of any that do.
you are moving because the feat makes you move in its place.Incorrect The feat provides you an option to move.
you can choose to move through that creature instead of pushing it back a number of feet
It does not make you do anything. Merciless Rush is providing more options to Bull Rush.
Next, I get to the most simple argument as to why it's a terrible thing to do, and that's partyrico's original point about free movement. (My example was just to illustrate how absurd it was to be able to move more than most people can charge for free) which is:
My biggest issue with the free movement would be that even if you are going against a single enemy you could trample on each attack, making your iterative attacks by attacking, trample, attack (the enemy is behind you now), trample and so on.
In his scenario you suffer only 1 AoO from the creature, and you get to add Strength Damage per number of attacks you get. Up to 7xStr Mod to the damage per turn on single target. At Strength 20 that's +35 damage to your attacks, for FREE. Sorry, at the risk of one AoO.
Finally...
the feat tell you exactly what it does
It is implied in the wording this is the effect of the feat
These two positions oppose each other. In one breath you say "this is literal and limited", yet with the other breath you say "but they meant to include this". I do not understand how you can reconcile that.