I'm building a Kitsune Ninja for a future home game, and since my DM is such an awesome guy he said it was ok for me to use the wakizashi in place of the scimitar for the Dervish Dance feat if I burned a trait as a tax.
That got me thinking. What will I call this trait? How should it be worded?
Here's a rough copy.
Peculiar Dervish
While trying to learn the deadly dervish dance, you discovered that you were more comfortable practicing with a different slashing weapon then the scimitar.
Benefits: You may use any one, light or one-handed slashing weapon in place of the Scimitar for the prerequisites and benefits of the Dervish Dance feat. This trait does not grant you proficiency with that weapon.
I often fail with grammer and terminology, so any advice on how to word it better would be appreciated.
Also, any thoughts on weather this trait is completely broken or not would also be appreciated. Thank you.
...than the scimitar.
(Hey, you asked for it. ;-) )
I'd make it a feat myself, but it's not ridiculously powerful for a trait.
...than the scimitar.
(Hey, you asked for it. ;-) )
I'd make it a feat myself, but it's not ridiculously powerful for a trait.
Indeed I did! Thank you for the comment. You think that's worthy of a feat? What do you think about changing Dervish Dance instead of adding another feat?
Perhaps changing the prerequisites to Weapon Finese, Weapon Focus, and 4 Ranks in Perform Dance? Then apply the benefis of Dervish Dance to a light or one handed slashing weapon that you have weapon focus for.
This would make Dervish Dance more versatile while preventing early access to the feat. It would also make Dervish Dance more comparable to the Agile weapon enhancement.
Edit: Quoted VRMH
Perhaps changing the prerequisites to Weapon Finese, Weapon Focus, and 4 Ranks in Perform Dance? Then apply the benefis of Dervish Dance to a light or one handed slashing weapon that you have weapon focus for.
I think that would make dervish dance relatively weak and reserved for campaigns that start late tbh. The ranks in perform dance on their own a little ridiculous, and it probably wouldn't be overpowered to let it be used with weapons with similar stats, like the wakazashi, cutlass, and rapier, without needing a trait. Just call it improved weapon finesse or something.
Perhaps changing the prerequisites to Weapon Finese, Weapon Focus, and 4 Ranks in Perform Dance? Then apply the benefis of Dervish Dance to a light or one handed slashing weapon that you have weapon focus for.I think that would make dervish dance relatively weak and reserved for campaigns that start late tbh. The ranks in perform dance on their own a little ridiculous, and it probably wouldn't be overpowered to let it be used with weapons with similar stats, like the wakazashi, cutlass, and rapier, without needing a trait. Just call it improved weapon finesse or something.
You think so? I've seen a lot of debate over Dervish Dance as it already is. Making it versatile seems like it should make it more challenging to acquire. I'm not in the camp that it's over powered, since it is quite similar to the Agile Weapon Enhancement. I do however question if it is attainable too early...
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Making it versatile seems like it should make it more challenging to acquire.
Why is that? Its not really more powerful. At best you can add 1 damage on average with a trait. Its about meeting a character concept and making it viable right? Is it going to break the game if you allow it to be used with a katana or wakazashi? How about a cutlass or Rapier? Or even a dagger! Now ask yourself if it improved the game and makes it more fun if you allow it. Important questions when making a change.
If the only mechanical implication is that you can get one more damage on average with an exotic weapon, its probably safe to say it won't break the game.
I do however question if it is attainable too early...
Well, people already build around it as is, so making it available at level one means they just don't have to wait on it. Its as powerful at level one as it will be at level 3 or five. The difference is how long it takes for the build to come online.
Making it versatile seems like it should make it more challenging to acquire.Why is that? Its not really more powerful. At best you can add 1 damage on average with a trait. Its about meeting a character concept and making it viable right? Is it going to break the game if you allow it to be used with a katana or wakazashi? How about a cutlass or Rapier? Or even a dagger! Now ask yourself if it improved the game and makes it more fun if you allow it. Important questions when making a change.
If the only mechanical implication is that you can get one more damage on average with an exotic weapon, its probably safe to say it won't break the game.
I do however question if it is attainable too early...Well, people already build around it as is, so making it available at level one means they just don't have to wait on it. Its as powerful at level one as it will be at level 3 or five. The difference is how long it takes for the build to come online.
You make a strong argument, and I am inclined to agree with you. I just have some concern that if we house rule Dervish Dance in that manner that it could be abused somehow...
So in your opinion, is using a trait to make Dervish Dance versatile balanced if perhaps unnecessary for similar weapons?
Weapon Specialization is worth a flat 2 damage, if one could expect an average increase of 1 damage with certain weapons, then that seems trait worthy.
So in your opinion, is using a trait to make Dervish Dance versatile balanced if perhaps unnecessary for similar weapons?
I think so, and I can't see anything that would be broken in particular. If you just look at numbers exotic weapon proficiency itself actually falls a little short outside of special weapons(Sawtooth Sabres are pretty cool and unique for example.) I might be missing something, but atm it looks okay to me.
So in your opinion, is using a trait to make Dervish Dance versatile balanced if perhaps unnecessary for similar weapons?I think so, and I can't see anything that would be broken in particular. If you just look at numbers exotic weapon proficiency itself actually falls a little short outside of special weapons(Sawtooth Sabres are pretty cool and unique for example.) I might be missing something, but atm it looks okay to me.
I appreciate your time and input MrSin! :-)
Do keep in mind Mustang's idea can work with any one handed slashing weapon Mr. Sin, not just light and finessable ones. In my games I have the following,
All weapons that were previously compatible with weapon finesse get it's effects for free.
weapon finesse gives dex to damage for said weapons
dervish dance affects any one handed slashing weapon
As you can see it's very similar to your own setup.
Do keep in mind Mustang's idea can work with any one handed slashing weapon Mr. Sin, not just light and finessable ones. In my games I have the following,
All weapons that were previously compatible with weapon finesse get it's effects for free.
weapon finesse gives dex to damage for said weapons
dervish dance affects any one handed slashing weaponAs you can see it's very similar to your own setup.
I had thought about that. That allowing one handed slashing weapons that usually don't benefit from weapon finesse to be able to gain that property could cause an issue. I decided however that it wasn't game breaking given that there isn't any one handed martial weapons with combat maneuver properties that I'm aware of. Given how good the scimitar is in my opinion, and it gains the finesse property with Dervish Dance, other one handed weapons should be able to benefit without breaking the game.
And lets people pay to finesse their katanas.
And lets people pay to finesse their katanas.
So what's your opinion Toaster? Is this trait balanced? Any way I could change it to make it better? Would you consider using it?
Talking to my DM, we decided it should be a Combat Trait. Would you agree?
I already allow it without the trait, so go for it.
I already allow it without the trait, so go for it.
WOW! I hope your group knows how lucky they are! :-P
As a trait, it might be overpowered. As a feat, maaaaybe not. Either way, it sort of takes some of the "wow" factor out of weapons like the elven curve blade (i.e. "big" finesse-able weapons).
What if the trait allows the effect to "kick in" when certain feat prerequisites are met? For example, once you have Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus with a one-handed slashing weapon, only then you may gain the benefits of this trait (which does nothing for you, otherwise)?
Side note: if you're really playing a kitsune ninja, this might be of interest to you (it has a bunch of ki content for kitsune, so it's sort of perfect for the build you're describing). It's only a buck, but send me a PM if you're truly broke and I'll get you a copy.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
As a trait, it might be overpowered. As a feat, maaaaybe not. Either way, it sort of takes some of the "wow" factor out of weapons like the elven curve blade (i.e. "big" finesse-able weapons).
What if the trait allows the effect to "kick in" when certain feat prerequisites are met? For example, once you have Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus with a one-handed slashing weapon, only then you may gain the benefits of this trait (which does nothing for you, otherwise)?
Side note: if you're really playing a kitsune ninja, this might be of interest to you (it has a bunch of ki content for kitsune, so it's sort of perfect for the build you're describing). It's only a buck, but send me a PM if you're truly broke and I'll get you a copy.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
I suppose it may devalue the Elven Curve blade some, but I think it would still have a place in builds that wish to utilize a dex based two handed build. You would still get 1.5x damage for using two hands, and could utilize a buckler if you wanted. Two things you can't do while using Dervish Dance since you must keep your off hand free.
The idea for this trait was to add a little versatility to the weapon options for a free hand fighting style. I'm sure strength builds using a two hander and two weapon fighting builds would still be more effective then this. The trait doesn't kick in until you pick up Dervish Dance however, so there is some delay before it can be utilized.
I appreciate the offer to purchase a product for me, that is very generous, even if it is only a dollar. I'll give it an honest look, but I doubt I'll be able to persuade my DM to allow us to use 3rd party material. He's historically block headed about it, I consider it fortunate he's allowed me to create this trait. :-)
I always thought the curve blade was really specific to a style of character like the switch hitting ranger who's focus is archery. It doesn't require a huge strength investment to be a competent damage contributor with a curve blade, you just need power attack to make it work.
And hey, you could always tell your GM that you wrote any content that you happen to like. : P
To be perfectly honest though, I always thought that finesse builds suffered too much. Feats are not so common that you can spend 4 of them to be effective with a style of combat. If finesse actually worked that way then fencing would never have become the dominant form of sword play.
To be perfectly honest though, I always thought that finesse builds suffered too much.
Its a weird thing where if you take away to hit/damage from strength, then strength only applies to encumbrance. So if you just give finesse builds to hit and damage, you can dump strength.
And hey, you could always tell your GM that you wrote any content that you happen to like. : P
Was about to PM you and ask which product you were recommending, lol.
I wouldn't feel right claiming someone else's work, lol. For a dollar, I can give it a look, he might be willing to yield if it's something that I can prove is balanced and comparable to the paizo material. :-)
To be perfectly honest though, I always thought that finesse builds suffered too much.Its a weird thing where if you take away to hit/damage from strength, then strength only applies to encumbrance. So if you just give finesse builds to hit and damage, you can dump strength.
In theory, until you realize how much of a hindrance it is just to carry your own equipment. I have never seen someone dump strength. I have seen people not invest, but that's not the same thing.
In theory, until you realize how much of a hindrance it is just to carry your own equipment. I have never seen someone dump strength. I have seen people not invest, but that's not the same thing.To be perfectly honest though, I always thought that finesse builds suffered too much.Its a weird thing where if you take away to hit/damage from strength, then strength only applies to encumbrance. So if you just give finesse builds to hit and damage, you can dump strength.
Same. We track carrying capacity, so at our table we see a that "spare" point-buy point (that always seems to be left over) go into Strength more often than not, just to help with carrying capacity. It's not like other scores benefit much from a single point, anyway. (Except Con!)
In theory, until you realize how much of a hindrance it is just to carry your own equipment. I have never seen someone dump strength. I have seen people not invest, but that's not the same thing.
I must be weird then, the ability scores I'm going with for my ninja involve a 6 Strength, lol. I think it'll be fun having a 20 lb light load. :-P
Muleback Cords are my friend! And only 1,500 Gold to add them to a Cloak of resistance. :-)
To each his own. I don't feel utterly confident when confronting dragons with an invalid "ninja".
To each his own. I don't feel utterly confident when confronting dragons with an invalid "ninja".
It's not min/maxed for combat, this much is true. Though it's not going to be as awful as you think. At 5th level I'll have Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, and Piranha Strike which allows me to stack Dex for Attack, Damage, AC, Initiative, and a lot of skills. Kitsune have a Natural bite attack, and ninja's can spend a Ki point to get an extra attack.
Level 5 Full Attack with a +1 Wakizashi and 20 Dex while Flanking with Piranha Strike
1st Attack +10 to hit, 1d6+8, +3d6 Sneak Attack
Ki Point 2nd Attack +10 to hit, 1d6+8, +3d6 Sneak Attack
Bite Attack +4 to hit, 1d4+0, +3d6 Sneak Attack
Invalid? I don't think so. Especially after I use bluff/diplomacy on said Dragon and fly around burning down villages with him. :-P
I'm building her for ok damage, but more importantly RP. I'll talk the king into killing said Dragon with his armies, and letting us keep the gold since we "saved" his kingdom.
When you build a character to be a hammer, you're going to see every problem as a nail...
can't use piranha strike with a scimitar. I meant invalid in the sense that they are very weak physically. Other PC's would probably look at your character as a liability.
can't use piranha strike with a scimitar. I meant invalid in the sense that they are very weak physically. Other PC's would probably look at your character as a liability.
Oh, your one of those guys. Its fine if someone has a score under 10. Not your party, no need to complain. Besides, there are numerous ways to overcome the penalties, and that's what he's doing. He's paying for it by expending resources.
I think that Trogdar meant invalid (the noun) as in "a person made weak or disabled by illness or injury," not invalid (the adjective) as in "irrelevant or suboptimal."
Despite being Iron Man, for example, Tony Stark is an invalid as he suffers from a debilitating heart defect and must rely on what amounts to a very advanced pacemaker just to keep his heart from stopping. He's also a recovering alcoholic and a brain cancer survivor.
Iron Man is absolutely one of the most capable humans in the Marvel Universe, so Tony isn't invalid (irrelevant)... but he is an invalid (a physically disabled person). A very valid invalid. : )
I'm not suggesting their is anything wrong with it specifically, just that a character I was running would probably look at this dude with one eyebrow raised until he proved he was capable. After a significant combat, my character would accept him because of his obvious capability, he may even offer to carry some of his stuff. I was just pointing out that strength is used for other things, so dumping it to seven is a punishment on its own.
I think that Trogdar meant invalid (the noun) as in "a person made weak or disabled by illness or injury," not invalid (the adjective) as in "irrelevant or suboptimal."
Despite being Iron Man, for example, Tony Stark is an invalid as he suffers from a debilitating heart defect and must rely on what amounts to a very advanced pacemaker just to keep his heart beating. He's also a recovering alcoholic and a brain cancer survivor.
Iron Man is absolutely one of the most capable humans in the Marvel Universe, so Tony isn't invalid (irrelevant)... but he is an invalid (a physically disabled person). A very valid invalid. : )
thanks, I neglected to make the implicit explicit.
Iron Man broke WBL level into a million pieces and has a high enough charisma we forgive him though. I read it as suggesting the PC shouldn't be played because it has dump stats though, which is a pet peeve of mine.
A very valid invalid. : )
Argh, my brain!
That was not what I was trying to infer. I meant that characters would look at a supposed melee combatant and say "wtf, this dude looks like I could push him over myself, and I spell-cast for a living", or something to that effect.
a very valid invalid
a very valid invalid
a very valid invalid
a very valid inverid...argh so close!!!
can't use piranha strike with a scimitar. I meant invalid in the sense that they are very weak physically. Other PC's would probably look at your character as a liability.
You're right, Piranha Strike doesn't work with the scimitar, it does however work with the Wakizashi, which is what my character was going to use with Dervish Dance thanks to this super awesome trait I call Peculiar Dervish! :-P
Also, you're comment about being an invalid opened up a whole lot of RP ideas for me, so I really do thank you for it! :-)
can't use piranha strike with a scimitar. I meant invalid in the sense that they are very weak physically. Other PC's would probably look at your character as a liability.You're right, Piranha Strike doesn't work with the scimitar, it does however work with the Wakizashi, which is what my character was going to use with Dervish Dance thanks to this super awesome trait I call Peculiar Dervish! :-P
Also, you're comment about being an invalid opened up a whole lot of RP ideas for me, so I really do thank you for it! :-)
For sure dude, role with it. =P