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Hey Pathfinderers,
I was looking at the Vow of Poverty option for Monks and thought some of it was a little clunky, mechanically. I just wanted to clairify a few things, give my own opinion on it, and ask you guys for your own advice on how to play an ascetic character.
Restriction: The monk taking a vow of poverty must never own more than six possessions—a simple set of clothing, a pair of sandals or shoes, a bowl, a sack, a blanket, and any one other item. Five of these items must be of plain and simple make, though one can be of some value (often an heirloom of great personal significance to the monk). The monk can never keep more money or wealth on his person than he needs to feed, bathe, and shelter himself for 1 week in modest accommodations. He cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others. He is allowed to accept and use curative potions (or similar magical items where the item is consumed and is valueless thereafter) from other creatures.
Benefit: A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every monk level he possesses.
The first issue I see is in regards to the items the monk is allowed to own. Thematically, it makes sense, and you may take or leave any or all of them (except maybe for a simple set of clothing for modesty's sake). The "any one other item" is vague, probably on purpose for the sake of the GM or player to add a little flavor to the otherwise bland inventory list of the VoP monk. However, what constitutes "some value" in regards to this ability? I'm going to go out on a limb and say anything magical is right out, but what about masterwork or special materials (which usually implies masterwork quality)? More than likely that is out too, but what is a good ballpark gp limit (less than 1 gp? 10 gp? 50 gp? 100 gp?)?
The second issue I see is in regards to the line "the monk can never keep more money or wealth on his person than he needs to feed, bathe, and shelter himself for 1 week in modest accommodations" which, if we go by the pricing guidelines in the book is 2 gp 2 sp 4 cp (a weeks worth of poor quality meals, inn stays, and baths). I'm assuming the monk would bath once a day (just in case they took Vow of Cleanliness). So does that mean the market sets how much money the monk can carry with him? Or does the book set the 2/2/4 limit and if a place is more or less expensive then the listed price, oh well?
The third issue I see is in regards to the line "he cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others" which prevents him from helping the party carry treasure, artifacts, or relics out of a dungeon... even if such items are a part of a greater quest, such as returning an artifact to a temple or restoring a stolen crown to a benevolant king. It just seems like an arbitrary gold limit, albeit probably set as a guideline to prevent abuse.
So, those are my beefs with Vow of Poverty. However, I would like to offer some homebrewed options for such characters.
Optional Skill Use
The following skill use can be used by ascetic characters.
Using Diplomacy to Beg
You can use Diplomacy to beg for basic necessities from a community or individual. To do this, you must spend at least 1d4 hours soliciting alms from a community or assisting in various types of unskilled labor. The DC of this check depends on the type of need sought, but for most common needs (such as food, drink, and shelter) it is 10. For more serious needs (such as medical attention or passage aboard a ship), the DC might increase to 20 or higher. The GM might rule that an unusually benevolent community or individual reduces the DC by 5, while an unusually malevolent community or individual increases the DC by 5. In addition, you take a -1 penalty on your check for every 1 gp of visable wealth you possess.
Optional Feat
The following feat can be taken by ascetic characters.
Detached Ascetic
You know how to walk this world devoid of attachment to material goods, and your commitment to the ascetic lifestyle grants you more leeway when observing the tenants of your vow.
Prerequisites: Vow of poverty class feature, monk 3.
Benefit: You gain a bonus on Diplomacy checks made to beg equal to your monk level. In addition, you may carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to party members or allies, provided such items are stored in containers and you do not access such containers.
Normal: A monk with the Vow of Poverty cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others.
Optional Character Trait
The following trait can be taken by ascetic characters.
Ascetic (Faith): You live an ascetic lifestyle in order to strengthen your spiritual convictions and rely on the kindness of others to get by. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Diplomacy checks made to beg, and Diplomacy is always a class skill for you.
Those are my thoughts. What are yours?
Trading all of your gear for a few ki points is the crappiest trade out I've ever seen. I can't believe this is what VoP was reduced to by Paizo.
We've been playing Pathfinder for awhile, but only recently took one of our old, high level groups from 3.5 and converted them over to PF. For most of the group, this was a fun process that gave them more to play with and stronger characters. Unfortunately, my character is a cleric/monk who relied heavily on 3.5's Vow of Poverty.
I'll admit, there were days in the past when I almost felt guilty for how much 3.5 VoP offered; yet there was always that heavy trade off: no magic items. There was never the slightest sense that my character unbalanced play.
But now....? Yick. The character borders on useless.
My GM was even generous enough to throw me some extra feats, more ki points, and a divine bonus to AC, but, even with all that, in high level play, I'm feeling mighty gimped. I can't use magic weapons or attribute enhancing items, and to balance that out VoP now provides nada. The character two-weapon-fights but is lucky to score a single hit with his best roll and then does very little damage (among other things, he really can't afford the penalties to use power attack).
I have 11 years of roleplaying invested in this character, but I don't know if I'm willing to continue suffering these game mechanics.
And who really cares about a few extra ki points? Anything short of "use all ki abilities as many times as you want" isn't enough, because the abilities themselves are pretty freakin' weak.
I'm not even sure if infinite ki would be enough. There aren't that many ki using abilities that one would want to use often where ki leech wouldn't be enough. The only good thing that I can think of is Battlemind Link. I mean, sure, you could take the extra attack all day long, but without magic items you just don't hit anything.
Yeah, for now, we should keep our fingers crossed and hope that Paizo remembers that Monk is supposed to be a PC class and actually change things with Pathfinder Unchained. Yet somehow, I fear that they'll say "ah well, we made pummeling charge so movement isn't a problem, and we reduced the cost on AoMF so no need to give him a hit/damaged boost... let's just give him full BAB and call it a day".
@OP: Pathfinder is so magic item-centric that one would need some serious benefits to make VoP viable. "Diplomacy to beg" doesn't do anything - since you don't take your share of the loot, pretty much any non-evil party wouldn't hesitate to pay for your food and lodging.*
Wasting a feat on an already extremly crippeled character just to carry stuff for your party is even worse.
If I would design VoP, I'd start with continuous Overland Flight (like Zaheer in Legend of Korra) and work my way up from there. Actually, come to thing about it, VoP should be a monk archtype. Hm, I might just build one...
*)On a side note, the 3.5 feat's wording seems to be a bit stupid, too - you are supposted to donate your share of the loot to a temple, yet once you pick up the loot to actually take it to the temple, you have it in your possession... so you immediatly break your vow?
Vow of Poverty in Book of Exalted Deeds(Which gets a lot of flack) is more than just casting off worldly possessions, you are making a pact the the Exalted Powers so getting stat bonuses makes sense as you go up in levels and this can make for interesting twists on other classes like a 'Begger Knight' who defends refugees with only an old longsword.
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I admit I never really understood the carrying restriction myself, it just gave me this image some low strength mage asking the monk to help them move some heavy objects for some mundane purpose (redecorating, moving house or the like) and the monk declining because it would break their vow of poverty to pick up an ornate wooden chest and move it to its new location. I mean really its not their property, it "normally" only provides mechanical benfits if you deliberately use an item but the monks vow is so binding they can't even carry something an injured companion if its too valuable.
"Please Arthur we've been fighting together for 15 years, my arm is broken I can't carry my fathers sword will you bear it back to our camp where Herbert can heal me?"
"No I'm sorry."
"Please if we leave it here I fear the regrouping orcs will steal it and its all I have left to remember him by?"
"No its too expensive I can't carry it."
". . . you pillock."
Our group never had an issue with the technicalities of the VoP rules of possession when it came to things like lifting or transporting an important item to help someone, or delivering a donation. The spirit of the rule seemed clear enough - as long as the VoP character wasn't gaining selfish benefit, it all seemed good.
Derklord distilled the issue for me:
"@OP: Pathfinder is so magic item-centric that one would need some serious benefits to make VoP viable. "
And boring7, thanks for the chuckle I got at
"I know, I'm a special snowflake demandy-pants who just wants everything."
That's exactly how I don't want to come across, but folks can easily hear this type of discussion like that.
We've been playing Pathfinder for awhile, but only recently took one of our old, high level groups from 3.5 and converted them over to PF. For most of the group, this was a fun process that gave them more to play with and stronger characters. Unfortunately, my character is a cleric/monk who relied heavily on 3.5's Vow of Poverty.
I'll admit, there were days in the past when I almost felt guilty for how much 3.5 VoP offered; yet there was always that heavy trade off: no magic items. There was never the slightest sense that my character unbalanced play.
But now....? Yick. The character borders on useless.
My GM was even generous enough to throw me some extra feats, more ki points, and a divine bonus to AC, but, even with all that, in high level play, I'm feeling mighty gimped. I can't use magic weapons or attribute enhancing items, and to balance that out VoP now provides nada. The character two-weapon-fights but is lucky to score a single hit with his best roll and then does very little damage (among other things, he really can't afford the penalties to use power attack).
I have 11 years of roleplaying invested in this character, but I don't know if I'm willing to continue suffering these game mechanics.
You might want to look at the Sacred Fist Warpriest; it's essentially a Cleric/Monk made into a single class. If you rebuild your character into this class then it will be plenty useful, though this advice is assuming you are attached to the character's story and not necessarily the mechanics. And, of course, you wouldn't use Vow of Poverty...
The vow of poverty is possibly one of the worst examples of a design team getting it wrong. Best case scenario in a home game it puts an extremely strong limit on a class that was fairly weak to begin with. In PFS since there's no way transfer wealth between characters it outright makes a character that is a burden on the party.
I have to admit I really don't get logic behind it. A wizard, sorcerer or arcanist blasting over 100 points of damage at level 10 is fine but a monk with a potential ki pool over 30 by the same level is something that should be offered with great care.
Really I would forget the vow completely and try to come up with something reasonable with your GM. Something possibly like no consumables, one weapon and your monk has to donate a large portion of his loot to either the party or a temple of his choice.
As an afterthought before we get the requisite "you don't need to as powerful as the most powerful classes to be overpowered comment" I'd like to point out that by level 10 bards and barbarians easily end up with more than 20 rounds of bardic performance and rage respectively. I really don't see why a high ki pool has to come at such a high price.
To the OP, I do hope that you manage to find a way to play austere monk without losing too much in terms functionality.
I feel Vow of Poverty shouldn't restrict a character (and it should be accessible to any character, not just Monks) in terms of gear carried. They're just tools for him. He just shouldn't have money, riches or stored possessions, own buildings or be in any position (on any level, be it personal, social or whatever) that would grant or require him to have all comforts and pleasant stuff. But gear is another matter. Basically, he should rely on found/recovered items that he actually needs for his purposes, or the ones he is gifted with (I mean in special-case gifts, not in party-sharing and spirit-breaking ones).
I know a +5 weapon is a treasure in itself, but you're using it as a tool, not as a display of richness or to buy anything that would actually make you feel or look rich.
I really don't see why a high ki pool has to come at such a high price.
Because it's a monk class feature and Paizo hates monks! Just like they nerfed Improved Natural Attack for absolutly no reasons and nerfed Crane Wing because apparently badly designed boss encounters in PFS can't handle martials taking a level dip in Master of Many Styles but and instead of just removing it from the MoMS bonus feat list they decided to kill the pretty much only way to make an unarmed attacking monk really good at something.
I calculated the average DPR of the monk I played and even with IUS and the extra ki attack (which he obviously doesn't have every round) the DPR is lower then a simple fighter with a greatsword - and fighter is one of the weaker martials still.Basically, he should rely on found/recovered items that he actually needs for his purposes, or the ones he is gifted with (I mean in special-case gifts, not in party-sharing and spirit-breaking ones).
That carries some problems on it's own - it dependy heavily on the GM. If the GM rolls the loot there's a very good chance you won't end up with the stuff you need (like an Amulet of Mighty Fists) and while the other guys just shop their items the VoP monk is stuck with some luckluster stuff. I don't think the game and especially the monk needs more dependancy on luck.
The problem is, it kinda looks like paizo has given up on balancing. Instead of fixing the weakest classes they print replacements (Ninja, and after that failed Slayer and Investigator for Rogue, Brawler and Sacred Fist-Warpriest for Monk).
Edit: The real problem with VoP is that the real life mendicant monks don't (physically) fight but instead try to reach personal enlightenment or walk some devine path. That doesn't really mix well with a combat based Pathfinder playing style.
That carries some problems on it's own - it dependy heavily on the GM. If the GM rolls the loot there's a very good chance you won't end up with the stuff you need (like an Amulet of Mighty Fists) and while the other guys just shop their items the VoP monk is stuck with some luckluster stuff. I don't think the game and especially the monk needs more dependancy on luck.
Well, dealing with such a matter always requires some in-game attention and "maintenance", and in that specific case of course it would require exceptions if you're rolling random treasure. You should either place pre-decided items for the Monk or give (side)quests to recover or obtain those items (a gift from a master, a lost relic from a fallen hero, or whatever).
Besides, unless one usually just glides over the magic market matter and gives the PCs free access to anything they have enough money for, thus ignoring the actual rules, even shopping for whatever they want falls far from ensuring they have all the shiny things they need or want. And at that point, they don't end up much different from the random-treasure-relying VoP character they just have a few more options.
The problem is, it kinda looks like paizo has given up on balancing. Instead of fixing the weakest classes they print replacements (Ninja, and after that failed Slayer and Investigator for Rogue, Brawler and Sacred Fist-Warpriest for Monk).
I still feel like the Brawler is more of a replacement for Fighters than it is for Monks but I have been thinking about it and I'm having hard time justifying why a person would choose a Monk over a Sacred Fist. Sure in my opinion evasion is marginally better than blessed fortitude, monk weapon proficiencies are slightly better and fast movement is fun but if you compare the two classes and think about which would be better at punching things to death the Sacred Fist is a clear winner. Add in a stack of spells that could easily benefit the entire party and what you're gaining in being a Sacred Fist vastly outweighs the niche monks have carved out for themselves.
Really unless you're really keen on focusing on combat manoeuvres Sacred Fist seems like the obvious choice and flavour wise they're pretty similar to monks too.