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Since GenCon is over - I would like to petition the Arbiter familiar be added to the list of Familars that can use wands.
It has hands, for that matter in its stat block it uses a tiny short sword, so it can certainly manipulate objects.
It is an Inevitable - an extraplaner outsider - of the lawful variety
It has spell like abilities (detect chaos, make whole, protection from chaos, command, commune) and the ability of speech - indeed Truespeech
Arbiters are not the pound you in the face Inevitables, they are the persuasive stealthy sort. Diplomat being a descriptor and a Charisma of 14 to back that up.
I know there was a reason to limit the familiars that could use wands but that an arbiter has an equally good reason as other creatures on the list.
And after all - the companion of an arbiter familiar has to be arcane AND lawful - so how common is that?
Thank you for your time and consideration
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I get that the OP has a PC with an Arbiter Familiar, but why not address the fundamental issue?
There's a bunch of Familiars that by the normal rules should be able to activate some magic Items, but aren't on list of exemptions from PFS' restiction. Ravens/Parrot Familiars can grasp items and speak command words. Pseudodragons are what Faery Dragons are based off of to begin with. Elementals are fully able to activate magic items. Etc, etc. All of these Familiars may be smarter than many other PFS PCs who themselves may activate items or even cast spells.
The limited list is kind of silly IMHO, because anybody who wants to really max out Familiar magic item usage will just choose the ones on the special list, which aren't really any weaker than ones off the list. Only people whose flavor expectations don't correspond to the special list are excluded, and it looks like LG/NG characters are left out (at least if the more specific wording in the Familiars themself is enforced as a restriction vs. the more permissive 'one step including diagonal' general rule, although what the official intent there is open to debate... if the 'one step' allowance stands then all those specific wordings are wholly superfluous).
If for metagame balance reasons they want to rule that only Improved Familiars can activate magic items, ruling out normal Ravens/Parrots (and meaning you are trading the 'auxiliary' skill/init/etc bonus of normal Familiars for Improved Familiars' ability to use magic items), great, but what is the reason to allow all of the current list, but not Celestial Parrots, Pseudodragons, Arbiters, Elementals, etc? A Celestial/etc Parrot is flat out worse (weaker) than pretty much all the currently specially allowed Familiars. If familiars using magic items is so absolutely disruptive to the game, I don't see why the current list of exceptions should even exist.
Ravens can't "grasp" wands as they don't have hands, they have claws and talons but they're not flexibly movable the way hands are. The best they can do is pick up a wand like a stick.. on the long side. They certainly can't aim it. Talons aren't substitute for hands and arms.
Uh... The Animal Archive explicitly lists birds as "Grasping/Carrying".
The Wand rules themselves go out of their way to say that you don't necessarily need hands to use a Wand:(and speaking the command word, since that is part of spell trigger rules)
The rules don't further state HOW you must hold the Wand, and there's no reason a bird can't "point [a wand/stick] in the general direction of the target or area", their claws/limbs have a decent range of motion and they can rotate their own body if need be.
I'm having problems finding this list. It's not in the guide and I haven't found it in the FAQ.
They've made previous rulings on it, and the list apparently coincides with the list of "Biped" familiars at the end of the FAQ on familiars/companions using magic items (The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars). Even though there's certainly other familiars that count as Bipeds (with hands), only those ones mentioned have special dispensation to use wands or magic items in general (the limitations on body slots applies to all familiars/companions, though). They stated they would fix up the FAQ to make it clearer after GenCon (since said issue is really distinct from the body slot issue, and the current FAQ itself doesn't make clear the special status of that list re: wands/magic item activation), and who knows, they might revisit the list itself.
out of curiosity where might i find this list.
I just quoted it.
Here goes again: (The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars).Unless I see evidence actually showing otherwise, as far as I'm concerned it's a definite no for the Parrot or Raven.
OK, I just cited Animal Archive which directly contradicts your statement that birds can't "grasp" wands, I don't know what else what do.
Doesn't really matter because for now PFS has an additional limitation on what Familiars can use/activate magic items, which also excludes many 'Bipeds' with hands, including Elementals and Pseudodragons (which Faery Dragon is based off of).And literally, I guess that limitation would also apply to swallowing/administering Potions, Oils, or using things like Wondrous Dusts, since those are also magic items, and the rule says that using magic items is bad no matter what (special list excepted).
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Sort of in the area, one person I recently GMed had an Arbiter that was representing Beezer for Captain Sternn. Other than size, it is a good fit to imagine what these things are.
"Hehe. Beezer, be a good lad and go into that melee and heal our companions with this stick."
"But captain, sir, those creatures will rip me to shreds."
"Hehe. Nonsense, my dear eyeball! I don't promote just ANYone to first mate on my ship without reason. I'm sure you can handle it. I'll be bravely coordinating the battle from back here. Just be sure to pick up any loose change you might spot during the fight. Oh, and do be quick about it..."
"(sigh) Yes sir..." <smash!> <bang!> <rattle!> ...
I think the current (not quite clearly explained in FAQ) list of exceptions (brownies, imps, et al) to the no-magic-use by familiars rule, besides being 'unfair' for other familiars, is just an overly confusing, overly complicated ruling. Keeping things as close to standard PRPG rules as possible makes it easier for people to understand, because at minimum everybody needs to know those rules first as the basis for how any PFS specific rules may change things.
Rather than needing to remember what specific creatures are on the list of special exceptions, it's best to just go by the limitations inherent to the rules (which depend on limbs, speech capability, intelligence) OR if there is to be a PFS specific rule, ***make it as simple as possible***, i.e. "only improved familiars can use/activate magic items", still subject to normal limitations per anatomy.
That the current list of exceptions is as short as it is certainly reflects that making a COMPREHENSIVE list, also specifying exactly which items can be used by each familiar (some could be smart enough to activate an item but not be able to speak for wands or verbal scrolls, for example), is just to much complication/too much work for PFS leadership themselves... Boiling it down to a simple rule achieves the most comprehensive result, while not resulting in the inevitable stream of "CAN YOU ADD ARBITER (or whatever favorite creature) TO THE LIST OF EXCEPTIONS?"
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Sort of in the area, one person I recently GMed had an Arbiter that was representing Beezer for Captain Sternn. Other than size, it is a good fit to imagine what these things are."Hehe. Beezer, be a good lad and go into that melee and heal our companions with this stick."
"But captain, sir, those creatures will rip me to shreds."
"Hehe. Nonsense, my dear eyeball! I don't promote just ANYone to first mate on my ship without reason. I'm sure you can handle it. I'll be bravely coordinating the battle from back here. Just be sure to pick up any loose change you might spot during the fight. Oh, and do be quick about it..."
"(sigh) Yes sir..." <smash!> <bang!> <rattle!> ...
given they have regeneration 2 - unless they are facing chaotic outsiders or the like they have not much to fear
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i made a guess on the other thread, i dont think it has anything to do with anatomy, that was misleading. My best guess is base int =12 or greater. Which makes a good lot of sense to me.
If an INT =12 or greater was needed to use wands, then I know a whole lot of sorcerers, oracles and clerics, let alone rogues, rangers, and the like who also couldn't use wands with UMD
;)
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given they have regeneration 2 - unless they are facing chaotic outsiders or the like they have not much to fear... Beezer for Captain Sternn..."Hehe. Beezer, be a good lad and go into that melee and heal our companions with this stick."
"But captain, sir, those creatures will rip me to shreds."
"Hehe. Nonsense, my dear eyeball! I don't promote just ANYone to first mate on my ship without reason. I'm sure you can handle it. I'll be bravely coordinating the battle from back here. Just be sure to pick up any loose change you might spot during the fight. Oh, and do be quick about it..."
"(sigh) Yes sir..." <smash!> <bang!> <rattle!> ...
"Hehe. You hear that, my first mate?! You have nothing to fear! No matter how bad of a beating you you receive, you'll eventually come out in one piece!"
<smash> "But Captain-" <CRASH!> "-that's not helping with the pain."
"Hehe...come now, little buddy. 'What doesn't kill you makes you stronger', right? It's not like there are a lot of demons suddenly appearing in the fray. You might as well call it 'The year of the Demon', or some silly nonsense."
<pop> <pop, pop, pop>
"Oh, dear. Captain, I believe you've spoken too soon." <crunch!>
"Hehe. And besides, aren't you contruct-types supposed to be immune to pain and all that nonsense? Of course you are..Hey, you lazy flying ball - Are you still listening? Where are you?! You didn't go and get yourself swallowed again, did you?! Hehe."
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I was just guessing at where the line was drawn based on what can, vs can not, currently use wands as a familiar. Int seems the only consistent factorMy best guess is base int =12 or greater. Which makes a good lot of sense to me.If an INT =12 or greater was needed to use wands, then I know a whole lot of sorcerers, oracles and clerics, let alone rogues, rangers, and the like who also couldn't use wands with UMD
;)
My comment was based on the "good lot of sense to me" part of the quote.
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It would be a help, but my guess is we will not know criterion because they want to vet all potential users and not have some book put something out that they didn't want as a wand user.
the arbiter has int 11 char 14 and spell-like abilities, some at will.
It is a diplomat scout - not a martial beater.
They are the smooth talking sneaky types - just the sort you'd expect could use magic device to make things work.
They already cannot use a neck slot item (no neck) and as you might imagine I have a character who has had a wand using arbiter for at least 7 levels. Wands that make sense for him to use, not for my character to use (though I do have use magic device as well - just a far lower charisma)
I don't know how many of us arbiter familiar users there are out there, because Lawful arcana familar masters are not too common (you must be lawful nuetral I believe to have an arbiter)
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Unless you've somehow managed to craft potions which exist as floating globules, that's correct as parrots aren't really equiped to remove potion vials and unstop them while holding them in the correct position to prevent spillage. For most birds the only way to open a vial, is to drop it on a rock and shatter it, which has problems with potion use.[
And literally, I guess that limitation would also apply to swallowing/administering Potions, Oils, or using things like Wondrous Dusts, since those are also magic items, and the rule says that using magic items is bad no matter what (special list excepted).
There is actually an item like that, though I think it's limited to undines for purchase? Potion sponges.
Unless you've somehow managed to craft potions which exist as floating globules, that's correct as parrots aren't really equiped to remove potion vials and unstop them while holding them in the correct position to prevent spillage...[
And literally, I guess that limitation would also apply to swallowing/administering Potions, Oils, or using things like Wondrous Dusts, since those are also magic items, and the rule says that using magic items is bad no matter what (special list excepted).
While limitations of specific forms can and do exist beyond general allowances, my point was that NO familiar besides the 'faery dragon, imp, brownie, etc' list... EVEN those with hands and normal biped physique cannot use Potions, Oils, Dusts, or even use-activated weapons/AoMF enchants, because the PFS FAQ explicitly bans familiars/companions from using/activating Magic Items, without any exception for 'use-activated' items. That isn't from the PRPG rules, it's just for PFS, due to 'balance' reasons or whatever other motivation they had.
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So this subject is still unresolved?
Seriously, per the still current official FAQ, NO familiar can activate magic items, period. The rule is:
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion."
That rule is never over-turned for any subset of familiars.
The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart. The carbuncle and voidworm protean, familiars granted by the Improved Familiar feat, uses the Serpentine section of the chart.
That doesn't even relate to the magic-item activation rule in any way, much less specifically making an exception to it. All it is doing is 'clarifying' how those creatures fit into said chart, which covers Item Slots and "Grasping", but it isn't instituting any new rule re: magic item activation. If we already understood that "brownies, faery dragons... sprites" were "Bipeds(Hands)", then the FAQ isn't telling us any new info/rule for them. Really the only useful clarification there is for Faery Dragons, since the others ARE clearly 'conventional' bipeds. Based on that clarification, it would seem the "honest good faith" response to also class Pseudodragons as Biped(Hands), as the category relevant for Item Slots and "Grasping".
I was pretty sure that PFS staff previously stated that the FAQ would be fixed to at least accurately convey their stated intent that the "brownie, faerie dragon... sprite" list are supposed to be exceptions, and able to activate magic items. What happened to that? How do Pseudodragons and other Dragons, and other clearly Biped(Hands) creatures fit into that?
The "brownie, faerie dragon... sprite" list itself is ridiculously narrow for the purpose of "magic item activating familiars", considering the number of other familiars of equivalent form/ability/power... say, Arbiter, Pseudodragons, and Elementals, to name a few. If this issue can REALLY be addressed finally, expanding the list should also be dealt with. Although as I have written, worrying about creating a specific list is a never ending hassle... Better to just apply a general limitation like an INT requirement, and otherwise just rely on standard RAW rules (e.g. Animal Archive determines which can "Grasp", and thus activate Wands if they can also Speak... AND have the required INT if that is made a general rule for Magic Item Activation).
An animal or familiar has to have an intelligence of 3+ to activate an ioun stone. If the animal or familiar has less than a 3 intelligence, they may not activate an ioun stone.
That rule is not really given in a way establishing it as an exception to the general rule... And as far as non-biped(hands) creatures, they will not ever be activating it themself: their master would be placing the ioun stone in orbit around them (as discussed in a post somewhere, but not in the FAQ). Assuming that type of activation is allowed, then this rules' 3+ INT limitation has no meaning (if the activation is by the master, bypassing the limitation on INT<3 creatures). Qualifying creatures without the anatomy/speech for Wands could still possibly Activate other Magic Items, such as in worn Slots appropriate to their Body Type.
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So this subject is still unresolved?
Seriously, per the still current official FAQ, NO familiar can activate magic items, period. The rule is:
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion."That rule is never over-turned for any subset of familiars.
The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart. The carbuncle and voidworm protean, familiars granted by the Improved Familiar feat, uses the Serpentine section of the chart.That doesn't even relate to the magic-item activation rule in any way, much less specifically making an exception to it. All it is doing is 'clarifying' how those creatures fit into said chart, which covers Item Slots and "Grasping", but it isn't instituting any new rule re: magic item activation. If we already understood that "brownies, faery dragons... sprites" were "Bipeds(Hands)", then the FAQ isn't telling us any new info/rule for them. Really the only useful clarification there is for Faery Dragons, since the others ARE clearly 'conventional' bipeds. Based on that clarification, it would seem the "honest good faith" response to also class Pseudodragons as Biped(Hands), as the category relevant for Item Slots and "Grasping".
I was pretty sure that PFS staff previously stated that the FAQ would be fixed to at least accurately convey their stated intent that the "brownie, faerie dragon... sprite" list are supposed to be exceptions, and able to activate magic items. What happened to that? How do Pseudodragons and other Dragons, and other clearly Biped(Hands) creatures fit into that?
The "brownie, faerie dragon... sprite" list itself is ridiculously narrow for the purpose of "magic item activating familiars", considering the...
I gave up on this - since nothing was forthcoming - and retrained out of Improved Familiar - back to my +2 reflex weasel.
