Hi. Working on a Dwarven Zen Archer and could use some feedback.
"Urist" is intended for PFS.
STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 18 CHA: 5
I think that's pretty well rounded for a ZA. Decent enough STR for extra composite bow damage. Decent enough CON; with the d8 HD & no other great favored class options, HP shouldn't be bad. Did not dump INT, so that's 5 Skill Ranks per level. Felt I couldn't afford a higher WIS, but that should be solid for saves, perception, and attack rolls once Urist reaches 3rd level. CHA had to be dumped, placing Urist squarely between a boar & dire boar in so far as personal magnetism goes.
Main concern with that is slugging it out for three levels with only a +2 attack. Urist will probably need to forget about Flurry of Blows until 3rd level. I expect to take Precise Shot at 1st, so that'll at least make firing into melee an option, provided there's no additional +4 to their AC for cover. I've played with reworking the stats, but I'm not sold yet on dumping INT. It's close though. DEX will still be useful for AC & Reflex, so I'm not too sure.
I expect to get Glory of Old as a dwarf from the Five Kings Mountains for the boost to magic saves because it goes great with Steel Soul.
The second trait ties back into the DEX dilemma and depends on if it's worth dumping INT for more DEX.
Defensive Strategist (LG - Torag): Keeps Urist from losing DEX bonus to AC.
UPSIDE: If INT is dumped this means a more reliable +3 to AC.(Flatfooted AC = 17 vs 14)
DOWNSIDE: Urist has a solid perception, +8, and shouldn't be getting caught unaware too much. From a RP perspective, what's a mind-over-matter monk archer doing worshiping heavy metal hammer god? Also I get the impression being LG in PFS puts Urist at a disadvantage in faction selection. I'm leaning towards either Qadira for the trade stuff or Taldor for the Noble Title.
Wisdom of Flesh (LN - Irori): Gets Urist Disable Device in class and allows him to use WIS in place of DEX.
UPSIDE: If Urist doesn't dump DEX, he'll have the INT to keep this maxed. Synergizes well with the added Dwarf Racial trait of Stonecutting for trap finding. Since I can't count on a rogue being around, this may be important.
DOWNSIDE: PFS doesn't play too hardball with traps anyway, right? Since Urist is a monk and not a rogue it's pretty clear that trapfinding is low on the overall goal of the character.
The combat feats mostly take care of themselves.
1 - Steel Soul, (B)Precise Shot, [ZA]Way of the Bow: Weapon Focus
2 - (B)Point Blank Shot, [ZA]Point Blank Master
3 - Deadly Aim, [ZA]Way of the Bow: Weapon Specialization
5 - ?
6 – (B)Improved Precise Shot
I could probably put off taking Steel Soul, but I still have an open slot at 5th I'm not too sure what to do with yet. Something defensive maybe? I don't think Urist qualifies for much in the way of archery after that. I've only planned up to 6th. I've heard ZA sort of peak at around there and don't pick back up until midteens. I'm not oppose to mutli-classing around there if there's something another class can offer. Rogue/Ranger/Fighter/Cleric? Maybe?
Without dumping INT I'm looking at maxing Perception, Acrobatics, Sense Motive, & Stealth. I'll probably put a point in Profession: Weapon Smith for the Day Job Roll, but mostly for flavor. If Urist snags Wisdom of Flesh for Disable Device, then that too.
So yeah... That's where I am now. It breaks Urist's dwarven heart that all the crossbows suck for a dedicated ranged PC. Fighter & Ranger aren't bad, but it'll irk me to be told how much better it would have been to play human instead for that extra feat in those archery feat intensive builds. I think this is what I'm shooting for. Any thoughts? ...apart from how tricky it's going to be to find an unarmored dwarven archer minature?
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OK, first know that all Spellcasters will HATE you (You have a +5 bonus from your race vs. there spells, on top of a decent dex/con, a High Wis (Will saves are very common) and 3 GOOD SAVES!
2nd, I would go without multi-classing because honestly, the only thing you could really get is 1.)Healing (Not bad, but you have decent HP, Really high saves, and don't melee)2.)Extra Feats(Really, you don't need them) 3)Offensive spells (again, don't need them) 4.)Sneak attack damage (Not worth it because you would always have to be sniping and within 30 ft. until you bought a magic item.
3rd I don't recommend dumping INT because, you have an AC 16, that scales with levels, and your reflex save is already starting at +4 at 1st level, growing, more vs. spells and sp. But lowering it to a 10 and raising Dex to a 15, you could put a level bump in there for more AC and Reflex without dumping it.
4th I say go with reactionary instead of Wisdom in the Flesh. Disable Device (in my experience) doesn't come up that often, and you are an archer not a rogue. Reactionary means you can get away from that nasty flat-footed AC.
But lowering it to a 10 and raising Dex to a 15, you could put a level bump in there for more AC and Reflex without dumping it.
Now that's a crackerjack idea. I tend to forget that the odd number thing is an option, just so used to trying to squeeze a full modifer from the start.
I say go with reactionary instead of Wisdom in the Flesh. Disable Device (in my experience) doesn't come up that often, and you are an archer not a rogue. Reactionary means you can get away from that nasty flat-footed AC.
I like that, but probably more so for the better odds at beating my own party's initiative. Urist will have a better chance at not having to fire at creatures that'll also get the added soft cover bonus to AC after the party stumble/summon something in the way. :D
Thanks, ArmouredMonk13!
The combat feats mostly take care of themselves.
1 - Steel Soul, (B)Precise Shot, [ZA]Way of the Bow: Weapon Focus
2 - (B)Point Blank Shot, [ZA]Point Blank Master
3 - Deadly Aim, [ZA]Way of the Bow: Weapon Specialization
5 - ?
6 – (B)Improved Precise Shot
Level 3 gives you Zen Archery (use Wis for attacks) and Point Blank Master. You get Way of the Bow/Weapon Specialization at 6th level.
For feats, Dodge is always good, and it sets up Mobility and Shot on the Run for after your movement kicks in.
I do want to warn you about taking your Charisma down to 5. There are some critters out there who drain Charisma at 1d4 per hit, and if you hit 0, you are dead. If you can get your Charisma back up to 8, you'll be more likely to go more than two rounds against these guys.
When I'm starved for points, I usually take my primary stat from 18 to 17, then bump it back to 18 at level 4. That gives you three additional points at first level, and at earlier levels, +3 vs +4 on your main stat isn't that much of a disability.
Level 3 gives you Zen Archery (use Wis for attacks) and Point Blank Master. You get Way of the Bow/Weapon Specialization at 6th level.
I don't know how I screwed that up so bad. I was looking at the PRD while I was typing it up, but I guess I was distracted.
1 - Steel Soul, (B)Precise Shot2 - (B)Point Blank Shot, [ZA]Way of the Bow: Weapon Focus
3 - Deadly Aim, [ZA]Point Blank Master
5 - ?
6 – (B)Improved Precise Shot, [ZA]Way of the Bow: Weapon Specialization
Thanks.
I hadn't thought about the movement stuff. I've never played a Monk before. I was resigned to the 20ft limitation from being a Dwarf. That's cool though, opens up some neat possibilities I hadn't considered. Though I still would like to avoid feat chains that lead to losing full attacks.
Yikes about the CHA drain. I don't know if there's much I can do about that though. Urist will have some pretty good saves & CMD and the benefit of being able to deal damage away from the front line, so I think the best I can do is hope to bring them down before they get close. I don't think I can raise CHA without making the build MAD. I think it's a fairly good trade off to be that solid against everything else. While it's not great, that's still a modest Achilles' heel in the grand scheme of things.
I like the idea of dropping WIS down a digit to free up some points.
Maybe something more like this?
STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 17 CHA: 5
Urist's DEX will let him hit a little better at low levels while bumping Reflex, Initiative, & AC. The impact to WIS is marginal, still expect him to have sharp perception with Darkvision. That looks much better.
Thanks, Gwen Smith.
Heh, I've been mulling over a Dwarf Zen Archer build over the past few days, and lo and behold here it is.
Definitely love that Steel Soul and Glory of Old to really frustrate those casters. I'd consider Improved Initiative and Toughness as feats for level 5 and 7. Or something like that. Just something to make your character better, since there's nothing you can do for archery with your normal feats, besides Deadly Aim, until you hit level 9. (It takes BAB +6 to qualify for Hammer the Gap or Clustered Shots)
Sometimes melee types take Iron Will when they have nothing better to do, but for you, you have a good will save, Wis as your main stat, and +5 (!) against spells. Yeesh, there's no such thing as too high a will save, but you're certainly getting close.
EDIT: Also, something I'd consider for a Zen Archer Dwarf is the racial trait Sky Sentinel.
If you have no particular attachment to those racial abilities, I think this is a good trade; flying creatures are common enough and it's sort of fitting that an archer would be a pro at shooting things out of the sky, so there's that.
I second the notion of sticking with your original stat array.
Ooh, another feat option might be combat reflexes, which you could even take at level 7, so you're free to take Hammer the Gap, etc at level 9. Combat Reflexes is nifty with Reflexive Shot.
And don't forget that Enlarge Person increases your unarmed strike reach (and by extension Reflexive Shot reach) by quite a bit!
I'll 3rd sticking to the original stat array. You can deal with only having a +2 to hit for two levels, it'll be worth it, and pumping dex to 16 is just too costly. Build looks fine, overall. You may want to consider style feats in the future, but 3rd level is definitely deadly aim.
I would not take Combat Reflexes and build off Reflexive Shot, it's not that good an ability, and you should avoid the front line entirely. You might even be best off never going to Zen Archer 9, level 8 is a good point to drop out for other classes.
As for feats, your level 9 feat should be Clustered Shots. It's just a shame you cannot get it earlier.
For styles, Crane is nice but you basically have to start early on it to get to Crane Wing by level 5 or 7 and still have deadly aim. Monkey is a good base style, I wouldn't get the other 2 feats, but the style itself will help you with prone. Keeping in mind that you can't shoot a bow prone, and using a move to stand means no flurry of blows. Monkey Style will let you stand and still full attack. Of course, dwarven stability also greatly helps there.
I'd consider Improved Initiative and Toughness as feats for level 5 and 7.
Those are pretty solid feats and I know they wouldn't go to waste.
I do like the Sky Sentinel trait package. It fits well with a ranged focus dwarf. I'd hate to give up hatred. I will probably go with Sky Sentinel anyway for RP reasons, but just out of curiosity I have to wonder how often aerial enemies appear in PFS? I haven't been playing long (8ish adventures) and I think there was only one occasion where some harpies were encountered. What about giants? My first character just barely made it to 3rd level so I understand that doesn't present a great picture of the sorts of challenges faced a bit later.
I preferred your earlier Stat array when all your physical stats were 14. But that's just me.
Really? I'm still concerned a 14 DEX is going to make those first three levels a real pain. As not a full BAB class & attempting to fill the role of a consistent damage dealer, I'm worried Urist just won't be able to hit anything for like a month. The sling is a good idea.
Ooh, another feat option might be combat reflexes
I like that. Even without making the AOOs with the bow, Unarmed Strike threatens anyway and so I believe can still take those AOO without putting down the bow. Love the idea of headbutting a passing monster.
I would not take Combat Reflexes and build off Reflexive Shot, it's not that good an ability, and you should avoid the front line entirely.
Is it just the poor AC that should keep Urist from the front line? Not that the goal of this character was to tank or anything, but I've been told the ZAM isn't a bad flank partner and shouldn't need to retreat as often as some of the other archers.
I had been told ZAM does sort of peak and isn't the best to take all the way with the PSF level cap. Cleric seems the most natural choice for the end game multi-class, but I haven't thought that far ahead yet. Would that be the way to go?
Thanks, The Chort, Krodjin, & StreamOfTheSky!
It's actually only the first two levels you need to be concerned about; level 3 is when you get +Wis to atk rolls.
Sure, you won't be AMAZING in those first two levels, but even by level 2 you'll flurry for...
+0/+0
+2 Dex
+1 Point Blank Shot
+1 Weapon Focus
And Perfect Strike 2 times per day to roll twice and take the better result. Could be better, but worth enduring until level 3.
I wouldn't say Combat Reflexes is especially optimal... But I think it takes the character in an interesting different direction; I like characters that can gum up the battlefield a bit.
EDIT: Some people like to cut off at level 8 or so, or level 3-4 if going with a caster multi-class. But going ZAM for all 12 levels is perfectly respectable. Keep in mind the goodies you give up by multiclassing after level 8:
Level 10 Bonus Feat (Improved Critical?), Perfect Stike let's you roll three times and take the best result.
Level 11 Trick Shot
Level 12 Abundant Step, 2d6 unarmed damage, +1 to ac, +10 movement speed
Also you get less Perfect Strike attacks per day and less Ki in your Ki Pool.
So should you multiclass? Maybe. I'd stick with it, but I can see dipping elsewhere. I could see dipping into Inquisitor for +Wis to initiative, knowledge checks, and other skill checks, if you take certain inquisitions. Unfortunately one of the best class features, Bane, doesn't kick in until level 5, and you won't be seeing a ZAM 8/Inquisitor 5 in PFS. (You could try ZAM 3, 4, or 6 and then go Inquisitor if you really want to in PFS?)
Other solid classes include Weapon Master fighter (so you can get weapon training and qualify for gloves of dueling), 1 level of empyreal sorcerer into arcane archer... And as you mentioned cleric, if you want a little bit of casting utility without completely sacrificing your BAB progression. Probably some more, but that's off the top of my head.
I would not take Combat Reflexes and build off Reflexive Shot, it's not that good an ability, and you should avoid the front line entirely.Is it just the poor AC that should keep Urist from the front line? Not that the goal of this character was to tank or anything, but I've been told the ZAM isn't a bad flank partner and shouldn't need to retreat as often as some of the other archers.
I had been told ZAM does sort of peak and isn't the best to take all the way with the PSF level cap. Cleric seems the most natural choice for the end game multi-class, but I haven't thought that far ahead yet. Would that be the way to go?
To put it simply...
Even though you *can* do something doesn't mean you *should*. With Point Blank Master, yes you can stand toe to toe with an enemy and trade blows. Or...you can stay back and deliver a ton of attacks into his hide that go unanswered by him. See the difference? You're an archer, and one with great saves. You can win a fight against nearly anything from afar. Don't throw away your advantage, exploit it. Shoot, shoot, shoot some more. They close to melee with you, keep shooting till they're dead; if you were sticking to the plan up till then, it shouldn't take too long to drop them.
And my main reason for advising against it is just that Reflexive Shot is such a poor ability and comes in so late. A fighter really can do that much better than you with Improved Snap Shot (which would be a tremendous waste of feats for you to obtain). Also, on AoOs, you would be using your medium BAB, not the flurry full BAB, so they'll be less accurate.
As for where to go... Cleric can work. Empyreal Sorcerer is also a possibility. Or Inquisitor. I think Fighter works well, though. I'd probably do ZAM 6, then into Weapon Master Fighter 3 for weapon training and pick up some gloves of dueling (will also let you get Clustered Shots one level early). Then back to ZAM for levels 7-8 to pickup the other flurry attack. Then your last level could be whatever.
No matter what, your first 6 levels should be in ZAM, so you have plenty of time to decide if you even want to multiclass out, and where to if so.
2nd, I would go without multi-classing because honestly, the only thing you could really get is 1.)Healing (Not bad, but you have decent HP, Really high saves, and don't melee)2.)Extra Feats(Really, you don't need them) 3)Offensive spells (again, don't need them) 4.)Sneak attack damage (Not worth it because you would always have to be sniping and within 30 ft. until you bought a magic item.
I'm in a similar quandary at the moment where I'm torn between straight dwarven ZAM or dipping Inquisitor 2 levels for
* improved will and fort saves (+2)
* a few first level spells
* a judgement
* wisdom bonus to initiative (dropping the need for Imp Initiative in my case)
* the Conversion Inquisition... which turns my 8 CHA dwarf from a badly scarred lump of meat with no social skills whatsoever to a badly scorched/scarred dwarf with the voice of a Bodhisattva.
Ok, the straight ZAM is pushing out another flurried attack and will be shooting around corners sooner (thinking going 6 with ZAM, then 2 for Inq) but the above dip just feels more rounded. I hate playing social dead weight. I'm almost even tempted to take a 3rd level for the interchangeable teamwork feats but I'm pretty sure that's not worth pushing the flurried attack back any further.
Mind you this isn't for PFS and would likely reach 15+
P.S. sorry for the derail Op! :)
If you need to spend a feat, I strongly recommend Snake Style. With your high Wis you'll have a very decent Sense Motive, perfect for warding off the occasional attack that comes your way from an irritated DM.
It's actually only the first two levels you need to be concerned about; level 3 is when you get +Wis to atk rolls.
I don't know where my mind is. You're right, only 2 levels worth of toughing it isn't so bad.
With Point Blank Master, yes you can stand toe to toe with an enemy and trade blows. Or...you can stay back and deliver a ton of attacks into his hide that go unanswered by him.
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the tactical advantage of staying out of the fray. I'm just looking at Urist's defenses and coming to the conclusion that he shouldn't need to run for the hills when melee closes like some of the other archers would. I don't think it will be much of a problem attracting attention with the sort of DPR a ZAM can put out, so I'm just looking at versilitiy from a PFS perspective. If Urist gets stuck in a party of spellcasters I'd like to know whether Urist is up to take the heat.
If you need to spend a feat, I strongly recommend Snake Style.
Wow, that's a nice feat. I have to say I think I like that more than Monkey & Crane. Looks like there's less of an investment for it too. I can see getting more out of it than the others.
Thanks, GM Arkwright!
Ok racial traits.
I've decided Urist should make use of Sky Sentinel; which replaces defensive training, hatred, and stonecunning.
Urist can't swap out hardy without losing the Steel Soul feat.
Greed can be swapped out, Urist won't get much use from a +2 to appraise. Craftsman fits better with a +2 to Profession & Craft of metal & stone. I know day job checks don't really matter much unless you're a bard, but it's better than nothing. Lorekeeper's +2 looks good too. History is in-class & Dwarves have some good enemies/history. Neither are super useful. Any opinions?
I don't think I'm crazy enough to mess with Darkvision or Stability. Those are good just the way they are.
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I play a Zen Archer and the first two levels aren't bad, and its worth it to just go ahead and flurry anyway. I think the penalty is like only -1 or -2 at level 1? I don't remember it has been awhile. The percentages work out in your favor to get the second attack even if both are slightly penalized than to take one at a slightly higher percentage.
Also, my stat build is similar, 14 str/dex. I did dump int for more wisdom, as the bonus to hit is really important. Played human, which is strictly not necessary because you're not really feat starved, but I like human stuff mostly.
In addition you gain your wisdom to your AC which is also important. At level 7, with a wisdom headband, I think my AC is base 20, 24 with ki defense, 27 with barkskin up, 31 with a mage armor portion. CMD is even more dumb. If I'm near casters I wont even 5 foot out of combat if I'm near a squishy, I'll just sacrifice the extra flurry attack for a ki defense.
With Point Blank Master, yes you can stand toe to toe with an enemy and trade blows. Or...you can stay back and deliver a ton of attacks into his hide that go unanswered by him.Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the tactical advantage of staying out of the fray. I'm just looking at Urist's defenses and coming to the conclusion that he shouldn't need to run for the hills when melee closes like some of the other archers would. I don't think it will be much of a problem attracting attention with the sort of DPR a ZAM can put out, so I'm just looking at versilitiy from a PFS perspective. If Urist gets stuck in a party of spellcasters I'd like to know whether Urist is up to take the heat.
If you need to spend a feat, I strongly recommend Snake Style.Wow, that's a nice feat. I have to say I think I like that more than Monkey & Crane. Looks like there's less of an investment for it too. I can see getting more out of it than the others.
Thanks, GM Arkwright!
I'm not saying to waste time retreating. I just don't think you should intentionally move to your enemies. Shoot them to hell and make them come to you is all, really. If you're putting out good damage, you wont *need* to spend resources on supplemental abilities to help "tank" for the casters - you'll be such a threat the monsters will come straight for you anyway. If in a party of spellcasters, they might not even NEED you to tank. First of all, the divine casters can tank quite well in their own right. Secondly, summons or eidolon can do the job, too. Most importantly, if the casters have any battlefield control spells at all, it's a match made in heaven. A ZAM + party of spellcasters will beat just about ANYTHING in a shootout. The battlefield control spells will lockdown enemies for you to shoot down like fish in a barrel, or at least divide and conquer such that only a few can come crawling out each round to get mowed down. I've played in such parties, it is insanely brutally effective.
I don't recommend Snake Style. Your AC will already be decent (especially if you can snag a mage armor from someone) and using immediate actions for that means not having swift actions for extra attacks via ki points, once you have them. Also, it only protects from one attack; relying on it is just a crutch, you should just focus on keeping AC up. Its not hard, AC boosters are cheap and you can vary them to get the most bang for your buck, rather than keep enhancing the same item at exponentially increasing cost.
A couple of general thoughts on multi-classing with Zen Archer:
First break point: Level 3
I would do a minimum of 3 levels of Zen Archer to get Point Blank Master (and get it 2 levels before any other class is eligible). Even if you're planning to stay back off the front lines, some bad guys have reach, and it would be nice to shoot them anyway. Getting Point Blank Master as a class feature saves you a feat later on, too.
Second break point: Level 4
If you stay in through level 4 to get your ki pool, consider taking the Qinggong archetype so you can pick and choose your ki powers. (A recent FAQ allows Qinggong to essentially stack with anything.)
Also, your AC goes up by 1 and your unarmed strike damage goes up as well.
Third break point: Level 6
Staying with ZA through level 6 gets you weapon specialization (and you will have difficulty getting it otherwise) for free and access to Improved Precise Shot. Getting a BAB 9 level feat at 6th level is very, very nice. Also, if you took Qinggong monk and picked up Barkskin, it kicks up to +3 at caster level 6.
So +2 damage for free, potentially +1 AC for free, and ignore most cover and concealment. Sixth level ZA is like Pathfinder Christmas!
Fourth break point: Level 7
Why? Two words: monk's robe. Monk's robe makes your unarmed strike and AC bonus function at 5 levels higher, and the unarmed strike break points are levels 4, 8, 12, and 16. You also get another ki power, which is nice.
Level 7 is my favorite exit point.
Fifth break point: Level 8
The main thing you get at level 8 is "Improved Two Weapon Fighting" for an additional iterative attack.
You can pick up a monk's robe any time after level 3 to get the AC and unarmed attack bonus from level 8, so that's not really a reason to stick it out through this level.
Last break point: Level 11
By this point you've gotten Reflexive Shot at level 9 (meh--you have unarmed strikes that do more damage for AoOs) and your Barkskin goes up to +4 (sweet!). You also get access to the expanded bonus feat list at level 10 (after Improved Precise Shot, the rest of them don't excite me much). There's another ki power in there, too.
The nice thing about sticking with ZA through 11th level is that you hit the next Monk's Robe break point, so now your AC and unarmed strike bonuses are cranked up to level 16. You can also now do trick shots like shoot around corners and such; that sounds like a lot of fun, but I'm not sure how often you'll be able to use it.
But honestly, if you make it to Level 11 Zen Archer in PFS, at that point, you're just dipping rather than multi-classing. Ma:-)
The percentages work out in your favor to get the second attack even if both are slightly penalized than to take one at a slightly higher percentage.Sounds reasonable. When I have time I'll run the math myself for kicks, but that seems likely. That was really my #1 worry, but if I can get by until WIS takes over then I won't sweat it. Thanks, Michael.
I don't recommend Snake Style. Your AC will already be decent (especially if you can snag a mage armor from someone) and using immediate actions for that means not having swift actions for extra attacks via ki points, once you have them. Also, it only protects from one attack; relying on it is just a crutch, you should just focus on keeping AC up. Its not hard, AC boosters are cheap and you can vary them to get the most bang for your buck, rather than keep enhancing the same item at exponentially increasing cost.That makes sense. I suppose the 5 ranks of Climb to qualify for Monkey Style instead won't kill Urist.
But honestly, if you make it to Level 11 Zen Archer in PFS, at that point, you're just dipping rather than multi-classing. Ma:-)
I think that's probably what will end up happening, a dip at the end of the career at one of the last two break points. I'm not opposed to going full ZAM and I generally play all my characters single class anyway. I've got time to think about it. The Qinggong monk ruling is a big thing, I know for a while it was assumed not to mesh with ZAM. That should really help.
Thanks!