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Hello again,
It's me! Asking for character build help again!
Here's the deal: I'm building a cleric, but I'm not sure how to do so. I know that they would be good for the party, and I have stats to support it, but most of the roles I attempt to take, are already taken by the party.
We have: A DPS/tank fighter, a Healing/ranged bard (picks up a wand of cure light and is a healer), and a controlly "God" wizard.
The second issue is the stat and race restriction: we do randomly assigned rolls for stats, and I ended up with a decent base for a casting/channeling based cleric:
STR: 9
CON: 15
DEX: 11
INT: 11
WIS: 16
CHA: 18
...And I have ended up a half-elf, which, admittedly, isn't the best race for a cleric.
The Bard takes up a lot of the duties I would attend to as a cleric with these stats, healing and buffing mostly, and I don't know if it's worth the effort to buff DEX enough to be a bad touch cleric. As well, she's building predominantly good, with available and probable gods being Iomedae or Serenrae, so negative channeling isn't great. We also already have tons of Charisma in the party, which does make me feel a bit redundant.
So, what would you build with those stats and this party? As of now, I am looking at a tanky crusader cleric going into Holy Vindicator to take advantage of all that channeling, with an emphasis on auras, but I'm looking for suggestions because I'm not sure how to fit in with the party dynamic. (Also, I'm coming in at level 8, so I have a lot of room to play with. We are in the middle of the Reign of Winter path, and my last character left fairly unceremoniously)
Thanks for any help as always, guys.
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If you want to go with any sort of Melee build, I recommend the feat Weapons Finesse because at the moment you can't hit anything with a 10dex and decent 8th level armor with a 9 str. Are you completely sold on being Good? Because a Neutral cleric of a Neutral Deity can take Versatile Channelor feat and Channel Positive Energy (For healing) AND Negative (For killing). That combined with selective channel and you can make a good rangished character. If you are sold on a good cleric, you could make a ranged Cleric focused on a Crossbow, or put the 4th level point in Str. and use a crossbow.
With your stats you're pretty much incapable of doing anything meaningful with weapons, but hey you're a full caster so who cares. If the Wizard is doing battlefield control and debuffs, you could focus on buffs (if the bard isn't into that) or just help with the debuffs. How does your DM deal with domains btw? Are you stuck having to have a god and using those domains or can you pick whatever as long as it makes sense for your character? Take a look at the variant channels; depending on domain some are pretty badass for debuffs.
You have to be a half-elf huh? Shame. I was going to suggest Aasimar, going Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Mystic Theurge X (I believe the daylight SLA qualifies you for Mystic Theurge on its own). Alternately, you could try an Oracle. Lore Oracle would get you Cha to AC (so would Nature Oracle) and that's kind of neat.
If you're absolutely stuck with half-elf, and being good, channeling isn't really going to be anything more than a sideshow for you. It's going to be out of combat healing and not much else. Your stats are terrible for "bad touch"-ing...I'd probably just stick to save-or-suck and buff spells, and summons. The Augment Summoning and Sacred Summons and Summon Good Monster feats are all awesome for that line of work.
A Flame Oracle of Sarenrae could be a good option. You only ever need worry about buffing CHA, and you won't step on the wizard's or the bard's toes too much. Fire immunities will make you cry, though.
Finally, since you have such high CHA, an Eldritch Heritage of some sort or another could be quite good, especially since half-elf gives you the Skill Focus for free.
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Woah, I was not aware of the guided hand feat! Now that looks pretty interesting... Prereqs are a bit meh, but might be useful.
The bard is a very buffing character, unfortunately, but does it very well. My DM is pretty much adamant on sticking to my God's domains, although cleric of a cause is an option if I can come up with a really good reason for it.
(Also, the other option is elf, but since the stat boosts and minuses are terrible in this array, I feel like it isn't worth considering)
There's a FAQ ruling now that SLAs so count for prerequisites. Having a 2nd level spell as a SLA counts as being able to cast 2nd level Arcane or Divine spells depending on what the SLA is, but yeah still not enough for MT right away.
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Do you have to play a cleric? Oracle's of Life are better healers. They get Healing Spells, Channel Energy, Life Link, the ability to turn into a Life Elemental, they are pretty awesome and ENTIRELY CHARISMA BASED! You could choose the Wasting Curse, a -4 to charisma based skill checks except intimidate (not a problem it seems for you), and be the best non-gestalt healer PC in the game IMO.
Also it does have to be 2nd level, not third. You can get a 2nd level Divine SLA (If it isn't on an arcane list it is divine) through the Incorruptable racial trait.
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Yeah, I'm not married to the Cleric, I just think the utility is great - they get a lot of spells I'm sure we'll need later on. However, my party is one of those that could fall into the pit of thinking of my cleric/life oracle as a band-aid, and I'd prefer that to not be my only trick. I do really like that lore revelation of cha to AC (more than the nature one because it adds to reflex as well)
I would say go Oracle then if I were you... If you think your party will expect you to bandaid them with all your spells then be neutral and take Inflict Spells. You can still use wands to heal like the Bard, but people won't act especially stupid and then whine to you.
Also check out the Dual Cursed archetype; Misfortune is an amazing ability. It also means you Oracle's Burden is one of your bonus spells. With that in mind I'd look at taking the Blackened Curse as primary and the Wrecker curse as secondary. Neither will mean much to you but it turns Oracle's Burden into a brutal debuff versus anyone using manufactured weapons.
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You could make a Synthesist summoner (if your GM allows what is possibly the most BROKEN CLASS IN THE BOOK!). You can help with melee, role-play, physical obstacles, and heal yourself (so the bard doesn't have to bother and can get healing done faster). Or you could make a Lore or Nature oracle and have a few tricks up your sleeve. The Ancient Lore Keeper archetype for elven oracles is great (you get sorc/wiz spells).
If he's half elf Ancient Lore Keeper is a step down... if he really wants to go that route he could take Eldritch Heritage Arcane and then at level 1l he could Paragon Surge for any Wiz/Sorc spell.
Also yeah the spell Paragon Surge... it's incredibly powerful, especially since there is a feat that lets you add a spell to your spells known. I don't know if I would seriously recommend it though, because it might be a little much.
So, wait, does Oracle's Burden with dual-cursed apply both of the curses then? Jeez, that is ridiculously cool with that combo.
The spell says they have all the negatives of your Oracle's Curse class feature and Dual Cursed Oracle just modifiers that class feature so I don't see why not.
I did mess up though, the Daylight ability doesn't qualify you for MT, as it's a third level spell, and MT requires a 2nd level spell. I wasn't sure if it qualified as both, but I suppose it could only qualify as one. Also I forgot the Knowledge 4 ranks requirements, so the earliest entry you could get is 4th with a 2nd level SLA. But the whole discussion is pointless to the OP.
@metid - Yeah, if I were you I'd just pick something like Oracle of Flame, who CAN cast healing spells but prefers to sling fireballs. Oracle of Life is a great healer but it's way too healy, and you'll definitely be thought of as the band-aid. If you're worried about elemental resistances, a level dip into Wizard (admixture school) will net you a familiar and 3 times per day changing your fire evocation spells to another element. The Lore Oracle is pretty cool for that defensive ability. Can't really go wrong there. The Cha to Knowledge checks revelation is kind of neat. Although the spells are kind of ... out of combat-y. Most people just dip Lore Oracle for the Cha to Reflex and AC. If you really don't want them thinking of you as the band-aid, and still want to play "good", play a neutral cleric of Pharasma, who channels negative energy. Since it's not about evil, just life, and death, with Pharasma, you can still play your character as a hero. And not have to be the band-aid.
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So, I am into the oracle, and am considering it, but I really like my tanky aura concept and might ask for some advice on that. I feel like with guided hand on sarenrae's scimitar and the holy vindicator crit buffs (debuff every time you threaten a critical hit) it could still be very effective.
Since the feat guided hand works well with my high wisdom, and I will get the channeling smite feat for free from holy vindicator, is there a way to get WIS to AC as well, or should I dip the lore oracle to get the CHA to AC? Or should I keep up CON and just HP tank with my improved self-healing and heavy armor proficiency? As well, are there any particular spells you might suggest for the aura buff/debuff? Along with the aura of heroism from the heroism domain (delivering a constant buff), what other stuff can I stack on? Spells like archon's aura and stuff that debuffs the enemy would be desirable, since I'm planning to be up in their faces anyway.
Also, would tower shield proficiency be worth the feat, or should I stick with a heavy shield?
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1.)Holy Vindicator is a good prestige class to enter as a cleric, and the crit/debuff is a nice way to use a keen scimitar. Ask your GM if he will allow the Guided property from 3.5 (Agile but with Wis instead of Dex to damage).
2.)The Oracle Dip would be better, as I doubt you can get Wis to AC. You should probably take heavy armor proficiency. Try the Crusader archetype for Cleric. Bonus feats at the cost of some spellcasting and 1 domain.
3.)Make sure you can carry heavy armor with your 9 Str
4.)I Like tower shields personally, but most people say the -2 to hit is a big penalty and should be avoided at all costs (Me and my Forgemaster Disagree with them).
So, I am into the oracle, and am considering it, but I really like my tanky aura concept and might ask for some advice on that. I feel like with guided hand on sarenrae's scimitar and the holy vindicator crit buffs (debuff every time you threaten a critical hit) it could still be very effective.
Since the feat guided hand works well with my high wisdom, and I will get the channeling smite feat for free from holy vindicator, is there a way to get WIS to AC as well, or should I dip the lore oracle to get the CHA to AC? Or should I keep up CON and just HP tank with my improved self-healing and heavy armor proficiency? As well, are there any particular spells you might suggest for the aura buff/debuff? Along with the aura of heroism from the heroism domain (delivering a constant buff), what other stuff can I stack on? Spells like archon's aura and stuff that debuffs the enemy would be desirable, since I'm planning to be up in their faces anyway.
Also, would tower shield proficiency be worth the feat, or should I stick with a heavy shield?
With Holy Vindicator you'll lose enough caster levels that dipping Oracle is kind of awkward. I really only recommend a positive channeling focus if you know you're going to predominantly fighting undead or evil outsiders (and picking up Alignment Channel). Guided Hand is a superb feat...the only way I know of to get WIS to AC is to dip Monk, and that kind of defeats the purpose since that only works if you're unarmored. If you're planning the Vindicator route, make sure you pick up Magical Knack (cleric) as one of your traits. Spellcasting with a weapon and shield is awkward as well, without Quick Draw you're going to be burning a ton of move actions to sheathe your sword whenever you want to cast and whenever you want to fight. Rolling into combat even with wis to hit, with a -1 damage modifier, scares me though.
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So, tank planning would be, for earlier levels, to go into combat with only the shield and buff up/debuff. Then later with magical knack I will have spells last long enough to pre-combat, when I can afford a guiding weapon (my Dm should let that one through). By then holy vindicator attack debuffs could come into play. However, isn't the cleric spell requirement for hands to gesture my holy symbol? I could put it on my shield, or use the weapon of my goddess, yes?
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You could wear it on your neck by using a bit of string, or you could get your already Keen (and possibly guided) Scimitar to also be Grayflame (+1 bonus cost, weapon acts as holy symbol). Weapon cords could help with casting spells as well, and if you take Birthmark as another trait you get a birthmark that counts as a holy symbol. I suggest taking alignment channel to enter so you have some leverage against outsiders, and if you are willing to try a good cleric of a neutral deity, using versatile channeler feat and an Urumi you gain from this deity, you can smite everything in sight with a 1h weapon that does 1d8 damage and has the same threat. I STRONGLY recommend getting your GM to let you carry a Guided Weapon because otherwise you will have a -1 to damage.
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I doubt I can get that deity, my character being from Iobaria, and sort of shackled to the prevelent religions there. I think in terms of straight stats, the scimitar critical hit chance would be the best - grabbing a guided keen grayflame scimitar (enchanted in that order, most likely) would probably get the most damage, though I doubt I'll ever come close to the fighter, who is an oversized bastard sword specialist.
i know you're really leaning toward cleric, but based on your party comp i think you should consider an oracle... use your racial +2 to hit 20 Cha and take the blackened curse and the Flame mystery. Blaster (AoE damage) is the one role you don't have covered; blackened flame oracle gets cool powers that are both offensive and utilitarian, and a decent amount of damage spells (plus free cures and you can still take buffs/debuffs/control/whatever with your spells known). for feats just take the same things a blaster sorcerer would. you could even take the eldritch heritage feats if you want for some extra special powers.
Summoning seems like a good route. There is a oracle curse from blood of angles called blackened. It gives you -4 with manufactured weapons, but, it gives you burning hands. With the right traits you could have a nice ace to pull. But then again, is your party forcing you to be a cleric? Why not just be a sorcerer? Good CON + 18 Charisma could definitely get you there.
I applaud trying to make the cleric work given the hand you've been dealt. When I try to make a wonky stat array work for a concept, I find I spent all my feats and gold just trying to get the thing to work, but it rarely works on par with an average character. Going with your holy tank concept, I would look at paladin with the holy tactician, sacred shield, or sacred servant archetype. You would get full plate so making up for dex is moot. Great saves. Full bab to alleviate poor str more. Face skills to take advantage of cha. These archetypes give you strong party support options that will be different than expected for a paladin and I think would feel like a solid character.
Because it hasn't been mentioned, what about Druid? Cha is wasted (unless you dip into nature oracle!) but your companion is great in melee and you are wild-shaped with str and natural ac bonuses and holding your own in melee. You are casting fun spells and seducing every beast you come across with your high cha. Totally solid character that fills a hole in your group.
Yes, I would recommend druid or sorcerer instead of cleric. A Evoker type sorcerer seems like something that would fit well into your party.
Summoner, but avoid the Synth. Synth is pretty bad despite people thinking it is broken. The reason I say that is action economy. Giving up having 2 things you can do to fill the melee fighter's role is just bad, esp since you are giving up actions where you could be casting spells. Action economy is the king of PF, giving up actions to be only competent at dealing melee damage is pretty much the perfect example of a build trap.
Generic summoner or master summoner is much better. Have an eidolon AND the actions to cast your spells.
As for Cleric build advice, that bard is pretty much blocking you from being a buffer (and takes evangelist out of the running, too bad, that archetype is really good). Your Stats takes combat cleric out of the running (which is too bad because clerics can make good secondary combatants, and taken to extremes are good primary damage dealers). The Wizard takes up your battlefield control options and debuff options, which means being a primary caster is blocked too. That leaves healbot, creating allies, or party anchor. Since you don't want to be healbot or party anchor, I suggest a build based around clogging up the battlefield with summons or undead servants.
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I have been talking to the party about what roles they are doing, and the wizard actually mentioned that he is going to be aiming in a much more summoning based in comba, along with control on the backside, so that actually opens up debuffing a bit more for me, and is definitely more a role I am interested in (I was recently a huge blaster as I played a 1-20 campaign as an arcane trickster, so I've had my fill of that style for a little bit). On that, I have to say I've never heard the term "party anchor", what does that mean?
A party anchor drags the party down through either incompetence, or builds lack of role (or builds glass jaw that screws the party frequently enough to be a problem). A rogue is usually a party anchor for instance, because nearly anybody can be a skill monkey and the trap finding is so unimportant its not really a party role. A no will save class/build can be an anchor too, as quite often they will be knocked out of the fighting or worse, re-purposed by the enemy to attack the party.