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I'm trying to build out the best Monk PC and am thinking a grappler is the best way to stop spell caster.
Here is one action you can take while grappling or after confirming a successful grapple check:
Tie Up
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
Manacles
Manacles can bind a Medium creature. A manacled creature can use the Escape Artist skill to slip free (DC 30, or DC 35 for masterwork manacles). Breaking the manacles requires a Strength check (DC 26, or DC 28 for masterwork manacles). Manacles have hardness 10 and 10 hit points.
Most manacles have locks; add the cost of the lock you want to the cost of the manacles.
For the same cost, you can buy manacles for a Small creature. For a Large creature, manacles cost 10 times the indicated amount, and for a Huge creature, 100 times the indicated amount. Gargantuan, Colossal, Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine creatures can be held only by specially made manacles, which cost at least 100 times the indicated amount.
QUESTION:
Can manacles be used like a rope? What's the DC to escape verses rope? The rules never mention manacles and IF YOU CAN use manacles what's CM check to apply manacles VS. rope while grappling? Shouldn't it be easier to apply manacles than rope during a grapple?
SECOND/LAST QUESTION
How does caster spells like these below work as a "triggered" action (I can't think of the right word but some casters have spells ready to cast if a certain action happens. These spells are prepared WEEKS or MONTHS in advance) prior to grappling?
Escape Grapple
School transmutation; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 immediate action
Components V
EFFECT
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round
DESCRIPTION
The magic of this spell makes you more lithe and imparts an instinctive knowledge of wrestling moves and breaking holds. You gain a +5 competence bonus to your combat maneuver check, CMD, or Escape Artist check to oppose a combat maneuver grapple check.
Break
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a twig)
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one Medium or smaller object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
DESCRIPTION
You can attempt to break or at least damage any one Medium or smaller object within range. If the target fails its Fortitude Saving Throw, it gains the broken condition. If cast on a broken item, that item is destroyed on a failed save.
Hold Person
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level antipaladin 2, bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (a small, straight piece of iron)
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.
Hold Person, Mass
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level sorcerer/wizard 7, witch 7
Targets one or more humanoid creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like hold person, except as noted above.
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The word you are looking for is contingency.
I'll let someone else answer that part. But escape grapple is immediate, they can cast it on your turn, when you grapple them. It doesn't need to be contingent.
Another thing is that tying up a spell caster just slows him down, and may not even do that if he has the right feats. You need to gag him also, and to be safe, blind fold him as well. Does anyone know if there are any rules for gagging and blindfolding?
@FLite thanks for the contingency! Can someone tell me how this works in a grapple?
How do gag and blind-fold someone?
@Kysune
I'm building the Martial Artist now on HeroLab to see how he/she stats out! Thanks!
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Contingency states "The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person". So most likely would be grease, escape grapple, and dimension door.
A ring of spell storing could also provide a way out. However, it takes at least a standard action to cast a spell in this way (up to the normal casting time of the spell).
You can’t use manacles instead of rope.
It should be easier to use modern day manacles than rope; not sure about medieval ones with separated locks.Contingency spell lasts 1 day per level.
You mention a condition and the spell is casts when the condition is met. For the first spell, it would probably be “When I am grappled”. The spell is cast on the caster, so Break can not be used, and [b]Hold Person[/i] would be a bad idea.--
That part is more advice than rules:The Chokehold feat from Ultimate Combat allows to stop someone from breathing and speaking, so no more spells with Verbal components.
I don’t think it is in the rules but you can probably gag and blind-fold an helpless opponent (one that is tied up for example).
Why can't you use manacles in place of rope?
Why can't you use manacles in place of rope?You can’t use manacles instead of rope.
It should be easier to use modern day manacles than rope; not sure about medieval ones with separated locks.Contingency spell lasts 1 day per level.
You mention a condition and the spell is casts when the condition is met. For the first spell, it would probably be “When I am grappled”. The spell is cast on the caster, so Break can not be used, and [b]Hold Person[/i] would be a bad idea.--
That part is more advice than rules:The Chokehold feat from Ultimate Combat allows to stop someone from breathing and speaking, so no more spells with Verbal components.
I don’t think it is in the rules but you can probably gag and blind-fold an helpless opponent (one that is tied up for example).
Because there is no mechanic in place to allow you to do so.
You quoted it yourself in your first post "you can use rope to tie him up." Not manacles, vines, thongs, twisted canvas, or anything else that might make sense from a real-world perspective.
RAW, your options are rope, rope, and rope.
What's the DC to escape verses rope?
You quoted the text to answer this.
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD).
For the Escape Grapple spell it is an immediate action to cast. Immediate actions can be taken at any time (except when you are flat footed) - regardless of whether it is your turn or not. So if you see someone is trying to grapple you can immediately cast the spell.
For break or hold person you will not be able to cast these if you are pinned or tied up (unless you have the still spell metamagic applied to them).
Note that there are three transitions you need to go through here to get your caster tied up.
First round grapple them.
Second round change the grapple to pinned.
Third round change the pinned to tied up.
The rules don't say whether you can use manacles or not in place of a rope to tie someone up. Personally I'd allow it. Physically slapping a manacle around someones wrist would be a lot easier than getting a rope twisted around both wrists and tied into a tight knot all while preventing them from escaping.
Why can't you use manacles in place of rope?Because there is no mechanic in place to allow you to do so.
You quoted it yourself in your first post "you can use rope to tie him up." Not manacles, vines, thongs, twisted canvas, or anything else that might make sense from a real-world perspective.
RAW, your options are rope, rope, and rope.
This quote from the rules
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up.
only specifically calls out tying someone with a rope. But I'd be quite flabbergasted if I was told I couldn't put manacles on a unconscious person, so it can't be claimed that tying someone up with a rope is an exhaustive list of things you can do to a pinned, restrained, or unconscious target.
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only specifically calls out tying someone with a rope. But I'd be quite flabbergasted if I was told I couldn't put manacles on a unconscious person, so it can't be...
No one would say that (probably). But you'd likely get some pushback if you tried to do it as part of a grapple check.
No one would say that (probably). But you'd likely get some pushback if you tried to do it as part of a grapple check.
only specifically calls out tying someone with a rope. But I'd be quite flabbergasted if I was told I couldn't put manacles on a unconscious person, so it can't be...
I agree some GM's might push back on that. But the full text shows that such push back is not strict RAW.
I agree some GM's might push back on that. But the full text shows that such push back is not strict RAW.No one would say that (probably). But you'd likely get some pushback if you tried to do it as part of a grapple check.
only specifically calls out tying someone with a rope. But I'd be quite flabbergasted if I was told I couldn't put manacles on a unconscious person, so it can't be...
Where does it say that?
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If you are going to say you must use rope to go from pinned to tied up to must also say you can only use rope on a restrained or unconscious person. (Ignoring the strictly pedantic argument of what tied up literally means - or change 'tied up' in the above to restrained or bound).
You can't selectively say only rope is allowed from pinned to tied up, but other forms of restraint are allowed or restrained or unconscious.
Doing so means you've taken apart a list of entries in the sentence and tried to apply a restriction (that is not spelled out in the rules) to only one of them. If you want to apply a restriction and make a claim of remaining in strict RAW the restriction must apply to all three.
Its not a case so much of what the rules say, but a lack of what they say. They do not say, "If you have a target pinned the only option you have (in terms of making their condition more secure) is to use a rope to tie them up."
What they say is a person that is pinned, restrained, or unconscious (all three go together) can be tied up. They are silent on whether you could use manacles (or any other form of restraint) in any of those conditions - leaving it up to GM adjudication.
If you are going to say you must use rope to go from pinned to tied up to must also say you can only use rope on a restrained or unconscious person. (Ignoring the strictly pedantic argument of what tied up literally means - or change 'tied up' in the above to restrained or bound).
You can't selectively say only rope is allowed from pinned to tied up, but other forms of restraint are allowed or restrained or unconscious.
Doing so means you've taken apart a list of entries in the sentence and tried to apply a restriction (that is not spelled out in the rules) to only one of them. If you want to apply a restriction and make a claim of remaining in strict RAW the restriction must apply to all three.
Its not a case so much of what the rules say, but a lack of what they say. They do not say, "If you have a target pinned the only option you have (in terms of making their condition more secure) is to use a rope to tie them up."
What they say is a person that is pinned, restrained, or unconscious (all three go together) can be tied up. They are silent on whether you could use manacles (or any other form of restraint) in any of those conditions - leaving it up to GM adjudication.
It's completely unrelated to being restrained/unconscious.
It's a question of whether you are trying to tie-up as part of a grapple check.
If you're trying to tie someone up as part of a grapple, you can only use rope.
If you're trying to just put manacles on someone apart from grappling, more power to you.
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The rules don't say whether you can use manacles or not in place of a rope to tie someone up. Personally I'd allow it. Physically slapping a manacle around someones wrist would be a lot easier than getting a rope twisted around both wrists and tied into a tight knot all while preventing them from escaping.
Remember, the manacles in question are not modern hand cuffs, they are bracelets with separate padlocks. It's going to be very hard to get them locked around someones wrist while keeping them pinned without using three or four hands. (There are actually a number of tricks to getting a rope around someones hands and cinched down with one hand while using the other hands to keep control. It might be ieasier to tie them up, then go back and manacle them.)
Also remember you need to buy manacles + 2-4 locks. (one per limb you want to lock up.)
So you'll happily dissect the sentence to get the meaning you want? :)
Would you say
Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have a speed of 20 feet (4 squares)
the 20' movement speed only applies to dwarves, because gnomes and haflings have nothing to do with dwarves?
Or that
Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects
only applies to feats, because spells and other effects are not feats?
or
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon
actually only means punches are much like attacking with a melee weapon, but kicks and head butts don't work like that at all?
or
Certain magic items, however, do need to be activated, especially potions, scrolls, wands, rods, and staves
doesn't actually apply to rods and staves?
Another way of looking at the rules is:
Under what conditions can I tie someone up? Answer: if they are pinned, restrained, or unconscious.
Follow up question, under what conditions can I put manacles on someone? Answer: No idea, because RAW doesn't answer that question - use common sense/GM adjudication.
The rules don't say whether you can use manacles or not in place of a rope to tie someone up. Personally I'd allow it. Physically slapping a manacle around someones wrist would be a lot easier than getting a rope twisted around both wrists and tied into a tight knot all while preventing them from escaping.
Remember, the manacles in question are not modern hand cuffs, they are bracelets with separate padlocks. It's going to be very hard to get them locked around someones wrist while keeping them pinned without using three or four hands. (There are actually a number of tricks to getting a rope around someones hands and cinched down with one hand while using the other hands to keep control. It might be ieasier to tie them up, then go back and manacle them.)
Also remember you need to buy manacles + 2-4 locks. (one per limb you want to lock up.)
Yes, which is why you will get GM variation on this.
If I have someone pinned would you allow my ally to tie them up? If I have someone pinned can my ally put manacles on them?
What is the grapple check needed for me to tie them up? (normal grapple rules except I get a -10 during the tie up)
If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty
It wouldn't be unreasonable to apply a -10 or -15 or -5 or whatever GM wants to adjudicate to swap out tie up for applying manacles. But there is no RAW on it one way or another.
My wall of ridiculous things is pointing out your fallacy of selectively applying rules to only a piece of the sentence and claiming the rest as unrelated. All parts of a sentence must be included to get the complete thought and intent of the sentence.
The only thing the rules you've quoted support is that when you have someone pinned, one of your options is to tie them up. Absence of text indicating that as a strict limitation of options available to you leave anything else potentially open.
It's completely unrelated to being restrained/unconscious.
If you have your target X, you can use rope to tie him up.
Now what is X? It is 'pinned'. Or it is 'otherwise restrained'. Or it is 'unconscious'. For purposes of this sentence and under what conditions you can tie someone up they are one and the same thing. For purposes of this sentence they are related to one another, in that all of them allow you the option of tying someone up.
But let me help you out here (after fully rereading the grapple section). The rule you should be quoting is:
...and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)
At which point I'd concede that if you want to maintain your grapple on them and tie them up at the same time then you are right.
I could then provide a counter argument and say, So don't use your standard to maintain the grapple. Use your standard to apply manacles. Then at the end of your turn since you didn't maintain the grapple the creature loses the pinned condition.
For that matter, strict rules wise you could standard to maintain your grapple, move action to 'manipulate an object' to apply the manacles.
In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action.
Unless your GM rules that manipulating manacles requires two hands, which can't be done while having the grappled condition. And personally as a GM I'd require a standard action to apply manacles to a struggling person citing 'in most cases' as being subject to my discretion.
@Kayerloth
Now that were back to address my question:
How do I stop your Priestess of Erevan from casting spells, because I'm playing in a Mythic Adventure (epic level) campaign that starts at 10th level?
I don't want to take Tetori Archetype because I lost to many monk abilities.
As a suggestion if you really want to threaten spell casters taking the Step Up feat is a great way to do it. Forcing them to roll for concentration especially with Kysune's suggestion.
This, or ready an action to attack on spell cast (you can 5' step as part of a readied action so they can't simply 5' step away then cast). Downside to readied actions is you waste your turn if they don't cast, and lose your iteratives at high BAB - bringing it to the question of whether stopping a particular casters spells being more important than either of those other two things.
Hmm Step Up with Lunge feat, add in Dirty Trick, hmm.
Lunge won't hope as the extra reach only applies during your turn.
You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn.
Dirty trick with blinded would be good to stop LoS on the spell. Or deafened for a chance to foil the spell. If you can push out very high damage with a single attack (probably not as a monk) that is a better option.
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Remember, the manacles in question are not modern hand cuffs, they are bracelets with separate padlocks. It's going to be very hard to get them locked around someones wrist while keeping them pinned without using three or four hands. (There are actually a number of tricks to getting a rope around someones hands and cinched down with one hand while using the other hands to keep control. It might be ieasier to tie them up, then go back and manacle them.)
Also remember you need to buy manacles + 2-4 locks. (one per limb you want to lock up.)
Yes, which is why you will get GM variation on this.
If I have someone pinned would you allow my ally to tie them up? If I have someone pinned can my ally put manacles on them?
At my table, Yes & Yes.
What is the grapple check needed for me to tie them up? (normal grapple rules except I get a -10 during the tie up)
I'm not real strong on the grapple rules, it's one of the things I need to spend more time learning. But absent something in the rules, I might go with -5 for an ally to tie up someone you have pinned, -10 for an ally to manacle someone you have pinned. (this would be an exception to the normal rules that say that multiple grapplers just add +2. And obviously totally a house rule.)
But I would have to go reread the rules before I did this.
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For long term (out of combat) spell caster suppression, there are manacles of cooperation. But most spellcasters can probably beat a DC 11 will save. (Besides, it just says they won't escape. It doesn't say they won't murder you in your sleep.) Shackles of Durance Vile have a higher save I think, but they don't list the save, so I'm not sure.
Wouldn't the manacles be almost I possible to get out of unless using very specific spells? The DC is 30+my CMB (25) instead of 20 for rope. I of course would have a caster gagged and blindfolded as well.
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Nope. Just straight DC 30. You don't get to add your CMB. Manacles are 2 bracelets, joined by a chain. Unless they are magic, they aren't even particularly adjustable. Rope you can adjust to the person you are tying up, and you can create a lot more attachment points, especially if you don't care about hurting them. The result is that you can make a rope a lot harder to slip out of, provided you have the skill to do so. It is still easier to break than manacles, so a big strong guy might just be able to flex his muscles and bust free. And as already pointed out, tying up a spell caster who has memorized "Animate Rope" is probably an exercise in futility.
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Aha. I found a loophole for the Animate Rope trick. AR cannot be used on an object carried or worn by another creature. As long as you tie them up and then *hold on to the end of the rope* they can't animate it.
For that matter, depending on GM, throwing them over the rear of your horse, and tying the end of the rope around the hose might constitute the horse wearing the rope.
For the Gaseous Form, have the rope enchanted (as a weapon) +1, Ghost Touch. While you are at it, if you have the money, make it anchoring. If your GM won't go for that, get the feat that lets you tie people up with your whip and get the same enchantment on that.
If you are dealing with druids, make sure you have Gloves of Form Fixing, and once you have them tied, keep them grappled to prevent them from slipping free. (or convince your GM to let you have your rope enchanted with Form Fixing as per the gloves, and then +1, Ghost Touch, etc. Bonus points if the enchanting process renders it gold in color and you use it as a lasso.)
Good info about Animate Rope FLite!
LOL Ogre sit on her!