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2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I was talking to some people about the new retraining rules. One person suggested a use of the rules that I think it not intended, allowing players to get feats far earlier than normal. I wanted to bring this up and hopefully this could be clarified so people do not abuse it. (Assuming I was correct about the intended use)
Feats use a lot of different prereqs, many based upon having certain other feats. So here is the issue in an example:
Monk turns level 12.
Monk sets out for retraining.
Retrains feats for levels 7, 9, and 11.
Trains to get dimensional agility, dimensional assault, and dimensional dervish.
The player does have the prereqs now that they are level 12, but that feat chain is made to start at level 13. Normally a player would not have dimensional dervish until level 17, allowing the monk to get this feat chain 5 levels early. This is one example of this type of manipulation.
I would think the intended use would be you can only replace feats at a certain level with another feat you would have qualified for at that level or something along those lines.
So ya... what do others think?
You must have had the Prereqs at the level you would be retraining for.
So simply walk your character back to the level you're retraining for and see if you have the Prereqs, if not, you're not allowed to.
It's in the Retraining Section.
I thought there was a rule written that said something along the lines of: "The feat you acquire through retraining must have been able to be taken at the level for which you are losing the previous feat" but then again idk.
The GM is fully allowed to limit the availability of a trainer. So not really that abusable for anything other than theorycrafting. It's also a bit of a downtime thing, so again controlled at least partially by the GM.
EDIT:
and with the two above posts on limitations, it seems like a non-issue.
master_marshmallow wrote: I thought there was a rule written that said something along the lines of: "The feat you acquire through retraining must have been able to be taken at the level for which you are losing the previous feat" but then again idk. There's not. Here's the entire text:
Retraining wrote: You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature. Nothing in the description says you have to take a feat you could have qualified for at the time. There's already an FAQ thread started on the subject.
Kairos Dawnfury wrote: You must have had the Prereqs at the level you would be retraining for.
So simply walk your character back to the level you're retraining for and see if you have the Prereqs, if not, you're not allowed to.
It's in the Retraining Section.
Good, I must have missed that when I read it. Thanks.
xJoe3x wrote: Kairos Dawnfury wrote: You must have had the Prereqs at the level you would be retraining for.
So simply walk your character back to the level you're retraining for and see if you have the Prereqs, if not, you're not allowed to.
It's in the Retraining Section.
Good, I must have missed that when I read it. Thanks. You didn't miss it, because it's not actually there.
RainyDayNinja wrote: xJoe3x wrote: Kairos Dawnfury wrote: You must have had the Prereqs at the level you would be retraining for.
So simply walk your character back to the level you're retraining for and see if you have the Prereqs, if not, you're not allowed to.
It's in the Retraining Section.
Good, I must have missed that when I read it. Thanks. You didn't miss it, because it's not actually there. Well bah, I will check ou that FAQ, hopefully one of paizo staff will comment so stuff like that can't happen.
RainyDayNinja wrote: master_marshmallow wrote: I thought there was a rule written that said something along the lines of: "The feat you acquire through retraining must have been able to be taken at the level for which you are losing the previous feat" but then again idk. There's not. Here's the entire text:
Retraining wrote: You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature. Nothing in the description says you have to take a feat you could have qualified for at the time. There's already an FAQ thread started on the subject. Correct. And the general text at the beginning of the retraining section states:
No restriction there, either.
Also, if we take the best parallel we can to retraining feats - Fighters, who have always been allowed to retrain bonus feats - they are explicitly allowed to retrain bonus feats based on their current numbers when they retrain - i.e., a character who now has a BAB of +6 can retrain his 4th level bonus feat to a feat that has a prerequisite of BAB +6, even though he didn't qualify when he originally earned the bonus feat. While very powerful, I don't see why this would be any different.
The only real caveat on retraining feats is the same in both cases: You cannot retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for another feat or ability.
Xaratherus wrote: RainyDayNinja wrote: master_marshmallow wrote: I thought there was a rule written that said something along the lines of: "The feat you acquire through retraining must have been able to be taken at the level for which you are losing the previous feat" but then again idk. There's not. Here's the entire text:
Retraining wrote: You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature. Nothing in the description says you have to take a feat you could have qualified for at the time. There's already an FAQ thread started on the subject. Correct. And the general text at the beginning of the retraining section states:
** spoiler omitted **
No restriction there, either.
Also, if we take the best parallel we can to retraining feats - Fighters, who have always been allowed to retrain bonus feats - they are explicitly allowed to retrain bonus feats based on... I think it would be different because it has different power consequences. The fighter can exchange 1 feat every 4 levels without restriction as a class feature. Having retraining work like that you can switch any number of feats at any time, leading to situations like I described obtaining high level feat chains 5 levels early.
The offset in the case of what I'll call 'UCamp retraining' would be the time spent in order to retrain (which can't be dedicated to anything else), locating an appropriate trainer with the feats that you want (and convincing them to assist you), obtaining a dedicated training space, and a basic gold cost.
The gold cost isn't too bad (I probably would have made it higher - as it stands, it's essentially 50g x your current level), but it requires a dedicated 5 days (8 hours per day) with no interruption. So in order to take advantage of it, your GM would have to give you a solid five days after you spent time to find a trainer and a dojo. If the GM has a problem with it, then you just won't have that much dedicated downtime.
I'm not certain that the designers 'forgot' that this could happen; it's possible, but I find it unlikely, especially since in the last paragraph of the feat retraining section they actually mention the fighter retraining feature and how it differs from this (without mentioning any additional restrictions on what the retraining can replace).
Xaratherus wrote: The offset in the case of what I'll call 'UCamp retraining' would be the time spent in order to retrain (which can't be dedicated to anything else), locating an appropriate trainer with the feats that you want (and convincing them to assist you), obtaining a dedicated training space, and a basic gold cost.
The gold cost isn't too bad (I probably would have made it higher - as it stands, it's essentially 50g x your current level), but it requires a dedicated 5 days (8 hours per day) with no interruption. So in order to take advantage of it, your GM would have to give you a solid five days after you spent time to find a trainer and a dojo. If the GM has a problem with it, then you just won't have that much dedicated downtime.
I'm not certain that the designers 'forgot' that this could happen; it's possible, but I find it unlikely, especially since in the last paragraph of the feat retraining section they actually mention the fighter retraining feature and how it differs from this (without mentioning any additional restrictions on what the retraining can replace).
I am glad there are some GM controls built in. Time be a decent constrait in some campaigns, but having the GM say you never have 5 days off could be difficult in others. The trainer can be bypassed as well.
The gold cost is really negligible, which I am just fine with if the intention is fixing character decisions the player later regrets.
However if the intention was changing feats to gain access to feats early, it seems like not such a great rule. I would ban it in my campaigns. Either way I think I see enough people asking similar questions/confused, that an official response on retraining rules would be beneficial to the community.
When I was reading I have always gotten the impression that this was intended to fix character choices, not gain powers early.
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