Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It came up recently in a side discussion I was having with someone that some of the local GMs have an hate of sunder, to the point of threatening to let NPCs start sundering PC gear if PCs start sundering NPC gear.
I don't understand how sundering is worse for the game than (for example) Grappler builds (which have the same problem of being able to shut down an opponent's ability to use their nifty awesome gear.)
Also, if their is a social contract that you can't break stuff PC's have bought why are there rust monsters in game?
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Stat blocks do not contain the hardness / HP for every item an NPC has. It is a tedious calculation that slows down gameplay when the player expects the GM to calculate this. You example of grappling is different because that is a value GMs do not have to calculate.
As a GM, if I have a sunder player at the table, I give them the item and the item's characterestics they are sundering and expect them to calculate the hardness and HP. I have enough to track between my NPCs and the actions of other players, as well as keeping the game flowing smoothly.
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Yeah, if you're going to use a sunder build, make sure that you have item hardness/hit point rules readily available, since that's something that most GMs don't know off the top of their head.
As a GM though, I have become known for sundering weapon cords (before using my iterative/2nd attack of opportunity to disarm the offending bow/gun)
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Ive only experienced Sunder builds a couple of times and on both occurrences it turned into a game stopper as I had to look up rules, hardness and all the rest. Then the GM has to make a bunch of modifications to the stats on things like AC and weapon bonuses.
Pain in the butt build for most GMs but certainly legal.
If a PC sunders a magic weapon or armor, is it still available on the Chronicle Sheet?
If a GM sunders a PC's expensive magic weapon and/or armor, do you think that it may have a large effect on character wealth? And do you think that the GM will be safe leaving the store/con?
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If a PC sunders a magic weapon or armor, is it still available on the Chronicle Sheet?
Yes. This is specifically mentioned in the Guide.
If a GM sunders a PC's expensive magic weapon and/or armor, do you think that it may have a large effect on character wealth? And do you think that the GM will be safe leaving the store/con?
It'll have some effect, but the player just buys a Make Whole at the appropriate level and the item is right as rain.
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If a PC sunders a magic weapon or armor, is it still available on the Chronicle Sheet?
If a GM sunders a PC's expensive magic weapon and/or armor, do you think that it may have a large effect on character wealth? And do you think that the GM will be safe leaving the store/con?
I've only once destroyed a piece of PCs gear. And I didn't destroy it. I took it. It was a suit of mithral full plate of speed, and I felt quite terrible afterwards. The player was understanding due to the tactics in the scenario, but I still felt dirty afterwards.
I can count on one hand the number of scenarios that call for PC item destruction/removal to occur. They're presented specifically in the tactics and do make the encounters feel more risky. It's hard to play so boldly when the enemy is trying to break that shiny new piece of gear you got. And it puts the GM in a difficult situation if their NPC succeeds. Watch as the entire table criticizes the GM for their tactics, and demands to see where it's listed in the scenario. It sucks.
I don't like sundering PCs gear, but if the tactics call for it, I'll do it.
If PCs do it, I sigh, but I'm happy they're not a summoning down waves of cyclopses to grapple/pin/coup-de-grace, taking a dozen attacks with double barreled pistols, or ill-omen -> misfortune cackling. Sundering is a tedious mechanic to deal with, but it's not even close to being near the top of the list in PFS.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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If a GM sunders a PC's expensive magic weapon and/or armor, do you think that it may have a large effect on character wealth? And do you think that the GM will be safe leaving the store/con?It'll have some effect, but the player just buys a Make Whole at the appropriate level and the item is right as rain.
In other words no worse than if he poisoned the character / drained the character, and the character had to buy a cure.
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Ooh! I should make a reference sheet for sunder, and keep it by scenarios that I'm running. Then when someone sunders something, I go "Ooh, look. I conveniently prepped a sunder reference sheet for this scenario. You know. For no particular reason." and watch the players go back in fear a little.
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Ooh! I should make a reference sheet for sunder, and keep it by scenarios that I'm running. Then when someone sunders something, I go "Ooh, look. I conveniently prepped a sunder reference sheet for this scenario. You know. For no particular reason." and watch the players go back in fear a little.
That is nasty.
I like!
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I have a 10th level fighter that sunders stuff on occasion. So far I've had absolutely no problem with him and any GM (and I've seen a lot since he's used only at conventions).
I have the hardness and hp rules memorized and calculate it for the GM, but I'm more than happy to show the GM the print out so they can do it themselves.
With the rules in PFS, sundering is even more friendly than in a normal campaign. But even in a normal campaign, it's quite easy to fix items, just time consuming.
So there's really no reason for the hate other than the GM doesn't like his toys taken away from him, but then again there are tonnes of abilities that do the same thing, especially with spellcasters and save or die (or sit in a pit for X rounds).
Bottom Line: People don't always make sense. Especially gamers.
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That said, I've never seen a sunder build in PFS (aside from my own) and I don't know why a GM would have an issue with one, particularly when disarm/trip/grapple work just as well.
Ahem... you've seen me ;-p
As a player that routinely damages objects (wrecker oracle/time mystery) I keep a print-out of the common object HP & hardness table from the Core Rulebook, as well as a print-out of the Broken Condition. I make it my responsibility to calculate out HP & hardness for the GM.
When a scenario calls for the damaging of objects, I have kept these print-outs on hand. Off the top of my head the following scenarios may require the GM to know this information:
While destroying a character's gear can shut them down, breaking the gear is an effective de-buff and in the cases where I have sundered gear I usually leave it at Broken, without going all the way to Destroyed.
Should you encounter sundering as a PC, remember that spellcasting services for Make Whole can restore an item even if it has been Destroyed so long as there are still remains of the object... I have run a scenario where everyone was weaponless after a certain encounter, but they still managed to finish and find creative ways to be in combat, and Make Whole kept them calm enough to not rage-quit the session.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Yeah, if you're going to use a sunder build, make sure that you have item hardness/hit point rules readily available, since that's something that most GMs don't know off the top of their head.
For what it's worth, that info is on the Pathfinder GM Screen.
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Should I decide to make a sunder character, I'll make sure to keep the rules ready for reference.
Beyond that, there are modules and scenarios that have sundered my weapons, and the mechanic is legal. If GMs still have an issue, I'm sorry, I like you guys a lot and appreciate your work, but tough nuggets.
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I'm in the "slows stuff down to look it up" camp. If all stat blocks had HP and hardness and/or DC to break, it would be much less of an issue. Also, because it's a rarely used tactic, I don't have the mechanics memorized or even on my GM screen (although I can change that).
What's really odd is that the game designers seem to think that sunder is a common problem. I'm always confused by the number of class features and feats that give you bonuses on CMD against sunder, especially when I've only ever seen one sunder attempt from either side.
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Ooh! I should make a reference sheet for sunder, and keep it by scenarios that I'm running. Then when someone sunders something, I go "Ooh, look. I conveniently prepped a sunder reference sheet for this scenario. You know. For no particular reason." and watch the players go back in fear a little.
You can't fool me! I know its there to sunder my weapon cords.
They've cost my gunslinger more cash then ammo usage does when you gm.
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Ooh! I should make a reference sheet for sunder, and keep it by scenarios that I'm running. Then when someone sunders something, I go "Ooh, look. I conveniently prepped a sunder reference sheet for this scenario. You know. For no particular reason." and watch the players go back in fear a little.
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Ooh! I should make a reference sheet for sunder, and keep it by scenarios that I'm running. Then when someone sunders something, I go "Ooh, look. I conveniently prepped a sunder reference sheet for this scenario. You know. For no particular reason." and watch the players go back in fear a little.
There is also one included in
It is quite handy.
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Honestly, running a sunder focused PC at PFS is pretty bad general gaming ettiquete.
It's only bad etiquette if you don't know the rules and cannot easily refer to them for GM's sake...and it's your main gimmick.
As someone who ran a Tetori monk, I always had a copy of the Grapple rules and condition cards handy because I knew not every GM was as conversant with them as I was.
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Honestly, running a sunder focused PC at PFS is pretty bad general gaming ettiquete. It's going to end up wasting the GM and the other players time while the rules are looked up.
I'm going to have to disagree here. It takes me less time to sunder an opponents weapon (and tell the GM the resulting damage to the opponent) than it takes for most players to resolve their own attacks. We're talking less than 10 seconds.
So... just no. People who have characters that can perform these things have the ability to resolve it quickly, and to explain the breakdown quickly if needed.
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Another part of the issue is the same reason GM's don't like:
Trip, disarm or grapple specialists or gunslingers with targeted shot.
Because now they can't actually use the NPC to do what the NPC does well. But they can't just call the fight (like if baleful polymorph or hold person or a witch's slumber hex were cast). You still gotta play it out, and be largely ineffectual for several rounds potentially.
A waste of time really.
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I guess my issue with having to take GM frustration into account is having to ask each GM what they consider "bad form". Basically it sounds like you consider sunder builds a violation of "don't be a jerk". Or am I misinterpreting this?
Also, most PFS NPCs are set up to do their gimmick, and not much else. There's precious few instances where an NPC could be effective at sundering compared to their actual gimmick.
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Honestly, running a sunder focused PC at PFS is pretty bad general gaming ettiquete.It's only bad etiquette if you don't know the rules and cannot easily refer to them for GM's sake...and it's your main gimmick.
As someone who ran a Tetori monk, I always had a copy of the Grapple rules and condition cards handy because I knew not every GM was as conversant with them as I was.
^^^This.
If your character uses an unusual feat/archetype/tactic, be prepared to help the GM handle it. Cheat sheets, table tents, reference material--these all make everyone's life easier.
At the very least, just advise the GM before the game that you're probably going to do something weird and point out where the rules for that weirdness come from, so we can at least bookmark the page or something.
Regarding Sunder in particular:
I think sunder gets a bad reputation because off the top of our heads, most of us don't even know what section of the book the materials table is in(Environment? Equipment? Combat?). And then hit points are defined by the pound or the inch, so we have to go look up how much the BBEG's armor weighs. Then there's the whole calculating the bonus from magic enhancements, so now we have to look up what number bonus "Seeking" is, and how you deal with fixed-cost enhancement. (Are you sure you wouldn't rather just hit him? I already know his armor class, DR, and hit points...)
Since GMs don't build PFS scenarios from scratch, most of the world-building details become just trivia, really. But if I know I have a sunder build at the table, I can at least double check to see if this scenario actually does call out what all the doors are made of or whether I'll have to make my best guess.
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Moreover, you must also note that if you are small, whether a gnome, halfling, wayang, etc., the hitpoint value of all equipment is halved. So a Small Tower Shield would be Hardness 5/Hitpoint 10.
To help out, you can always purchace a Fortifying Stone from the PFS Field Guide. 1k g for an extra 5 hardness and 20 hit point on a piece of item.
For my halfing, this can help out a lot, to where I am aiming to get a +5 Tower Shield, which would have Hardness 20, HP 80.
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Actually, while I don't hate Sunder, I can list a couple more issues with it that players don't always consider.
As mentioned, figuring out the target's Hardness/HP, especially when the Sunder user has Greater Sunder so the damage overflow goes to the wielder...
And, of course, the issues when the item sundered winds up being something that the PCs actually could have used or maybe even needed to complete the scenario.
Sometimes it can cause the same issues as using an axe as a lockpick. Sometimes you'll lose something needed later on, or something that could have made a later encounter easier.
Disarm, for the most part, does the same thing, faster and simpler. And without destroying an item that might be the mission completion item...
Honestly, I wish ALL items had their Hardness/HPs explicitly listed,
it would just be alot easier if that was on the table (or text, if they aren't on a table) along with their other stats.
You would still have to modify for adamantite/other special materials or enhancement bonus, but it just makes it that much simpler.
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Disarm, for the most part, does the same thing, faster and simpler. And without destroying an item that might be the mission completion item...
I generally sunder armor, especially when encountering foes that the rest of the party is having trouble hitting.
Also, many thanks to redward. I've been using my own homebrew chart thus far but yours is much more comprehensive.
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Actually, while I don't hate Sunder, I can list a couple more issues with it that players don't always consider.
As mentioned, figuring out the target's Hardness/HP, especially when the Sunder user has Greater Sunder so the damage overflow goes to the wielder...
And, of course, the issues when the item sundered winds up being something that the PCs actually could have used or maybe even needed to complete the scenario.
** spoiler omitted **
If it's truly something vital, Make Whole and Mending will cure what ails you.
I have a Sundering Barbarian (who, to date, has never actually sundered anything) which is why I made that chart in the first place. I wanted to be able to do it without bringing combat to a standstill while we look things up and do many maths.
I also go by the philosophy that any tactic that a player introduces is fair game. You want to Coup-de-Grace an NPC? Fine, but that's on the table now. And that's why I investigated the rules for repairing my Barbarian's 35,000gp sword.
But that's how it should be. Players should understand the mechanics for anything their characters will be doing, whether that means bringing a copy of the Grapple chart or memorizing the Mounted Combat rules.
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I add my own opinion here
Using sunder to do something important in a combat situation - like cutting a rope an enemy is hanging on to or sundering a magical item part of an evil ceremony - fantastic. I congratulate you as GM at my table as you added something to remember.
Sunder builds for the sake of sundering holy symbols and spell pouches - I feel very different about that.
Let's start with holy symbols. I have a player who swings a dead rat as his holy symbol - please take a guess which obscure god that is. It is part of the roleplaying of this slighly deranged character.
I would argue an NPC would need a decent knowledge religion to identify the dead rat as holy symbol. This is an extreme case - but sunder builts often just target holy symbols when they can take many different shapes and forms - some more obvious, some less. And the description in a scenario doesn't tell you how it looks like.
1) As GM I have three options - prepare and add form / place to these items. Including knowledge religion rolls for non obvious items. Possibly give a +5(10?) after the holy item was a tally used.
2) make something up on the fly
3) ignore shape/form of a holy item and just let it be sundered
1) and 2) cause table variation. They could be very memorable and a highlight of a game - or I could be accused by a sunder specialist here on the boards I nerfed him because I dared to have him identify the holy symbol first.
3) is meta gaming
The spell component pouch is another can of worms. Read the description - it isn't necessarily a single container.
Unlikely that I have a feather and bat guano mixed up. So what are you actually sundering when you target the meta-object spell component pouch. And can you even sunder bat guano or is the wizard allowed in a move action to scoop some up from the floor (AoO) and then cast?
The next issue is after the sunder. Some spells don't need components/holy symbols.
Option 1- I prepare all spells before hand and note which work after a sunder
Option 2 - I look it up on the table - a tier 7-11 might know 20 spells - so please be patient
Option 3 - I just don't spell cast at all and assume I'm fully shut down while possibly missing a really useful spell that the cleric/GM still can do
My shtick is to have gorgeous 3-d scenery prepared. That takes a lot of time and effort. So option 1 is unlikely to happen - unless I'm pre warned to expect a player with certain tactics. So no - I tend not to be sufficiently prepared for a sunder specialist targeting spell casters despite being a 5-star.
As a player you can prepare weapon and armour sundering - you can't take over the preparation for shutting down spell casters.
Or I just allow players to target without fail a meta object. But that leaves me feeling Being taken advantage of. I wouldn't call it sunder hate - but it's unlikely to have added to my enjoyment at the table.
Thod
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There are a few already posted, but here is the page I made for my sunder build. I take a printed copy with my character binder and hand it to the GM when I play that character.
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While not explicitly against the rules, bringing a sunder PC to a table with a GM that doesn't know you're coming and is not prepped for it is kinda being a jerk, in my opinion. And a lot of GMs are going to feel the same way. If you build a sunder PC, you should be aware of this from the get go.
The main reason why sunder in particular is such a problem is not only is it so infrequently used, but you also have to cross reference multiple sections of the book, for each item.
I would think that a sunder using player simply bringing a print out of the hardness and hp for items page should rectify that issue.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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While not explicitly against the rules, bringing a sunder PC to a table with a GM that doesn't know you're coming and is not prepped for it is kinda being a jerk, in my opinion. And a lot of GMs are going to feel the same way. If you build a sunder PC, you should be aware of this from the get go.
The main reason why sunder in particular is such a problem is not only is it so infrequently used, but you also have to cross reference multiple sections of the book, for each item.
Every concern you're bringing up has been addressed multiple times throughout the thread: bringing cheat-sheets, quick-reference tables, etc. And yet you act like it changes nothing, as though having all relevant info compiled in one place somehow fails to remove the need to stop play to cross-reference multiple pages in the CRB.
Why do you think that? It's like you refuse any help you're offered and then complain about how much work you have to do.
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I hate any rules that players use, but don't understand and require me to correct them on how to play their character.
If you're going to make a sundering character, please take the time to learn the sunder, item hardness/hit points, and broken condition rules and be prepared to calculate those things on the fly. Also be prepared to mend or make whole NPC gear if you want to use it during the scenario.
If you're going to make a grappler, I expect you to have the grapple rules, conditions, and blog clarifications all handy and properly understood.
If it's part of the game, great, do it, have fun doing it, but please at least put some effort into understanding it! Unless you're a 1st level newbie, GMs don't have the time to help you run your character. ;-)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I hate any rules that players use, but don't understand and require me to correct them on how to play their character.
If you're going to make a sundering character, please take the time to learn the sunder, item hardness/hit points, and broken condition rules and be prepared to calculate those things on the fly. Also be prepared to mend or make whole NPC gear if you want to use it during the scenario.
If you're going to make a grappler, I expect you to have the grapple rules, conditions, and blog clarifications all handy and properly understood.
If it's part of the game, great, do it, have fun doing it, but please at least put some effort into understanding it! Unless you're a 1st level newbie, GMs don't have the time to help you run your character. ;-)
I don't normally do the "+1" thing, but there aren't enough "Favorite" buttons for this post.
If you're going to do X every single game, know how X works.