So I saw this brought up in another thread but I dont think it was ever answered. Lets say a 9th level Rogue was hit with a Baleful Polymorph and he failed his fort and Will save. Now he is a monkey.
If a Druid cast Awaken on it Twice. Would it regain knowledge of who it was before? He would still have SA and all of that I know. But would he remember being human? It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. So it would be one BA little monkey.
Would you use something like that in a game? Or is it too silly.
...say a 9th level Rogue was hit with a Baleful Polymorph and he failed his Fort and Will save. Now he is a monkey... If a druid cast Awaken on it twice......I... don't see anything in baleful polymorph that indicates that the creature really and truly acquires the Animal type. Awaken won't work on a creature of the Humanoid type.
Crap. You might be right. I will need to look and see if they even qualify for Awaken.
Polymorph effects in general do not change the creature's type. This would have to be spelled out by the effect itself.
Polymorph effects in general do not change the creature's type. This would have to be spelled out by the effect itself.
I looked under Polymorph and Transmutation and neither one talked about creature type. Is there an FAQ on any of this? I recall the original BP caused the target to become an actual animal. A few questions.
1. Lets say a Wizard uses Beast Shape III and a Druid tries to use Dominate Animal on him. I assume it doesn't work but it doesnt really talk about creature types.
2. It says that Polymorph causes all objects to meld with the person right... so in the case of Baleful Polymorph how does that work. You loose those items forever? Could be a unique way to hide away an artifact you dont want found.
BP says:
As beast shape III, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD.
So, it's beast shape 3. It still doesn't change type.
1. Correct. He's not an animal. He has the form and SOME qualities of an animal.
2. They meld with him as long as the effect persists. Being permanent that means until dispelled, or, if they're a shapechanger, it's just a move action.
Would you use something like that in a game? Or is it too silly.
In my experience, silly is all about how you treat the material. A good showman can make a silly concept serious, and a serious one silly. Personally I can see a lot of potential in a rogue trapped in a monkey's body, struggling to find a wizard willing to break the enchantment.
Baleful Polymorph has a duration of Permanent, which means the rogue is a Dispel Magic away from regaining his true form (assuming he made his will save,) but convincing a wizard to help him for free, or getting his hands on the money to pay for a wizard's services, could be an interesting plot point.
I could also see a wizard's "pet" monkey turning out to be a rogue that had tried to rob him at some point in the past and, to complete his revenge the wizard kept him around. When the PCs happen to cast an area Dispel Magic they happen to dispel the Baleful Polymorph and whacky hijinks ensue. :)
So if you baleful polymorph a shape hanger, but he does make the will save ... Does that basically mean you have just changed his base form and x many times a day that monkey, say, can turn into a wolf - or a bizzare hybrid monkey-wolf?
No. Also from BP:
a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action
Since polymorph spells don't change type, only form, it's just a standard action for them to resume their old form. I misspoke when I said move.
No. Also from BP:
a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard actionSince polymorph spells don't change type, only form, it's just a standard action for them to resume their old form. I misspoke when I said move.
Buri I think your spot on. I just cant find the actual rule in either Polymorph, BeastShape, Baleful Polymorph, or the section on Polymorph spells under Transmutation that say ANYTHING about creature type. It simply says you turn into so in so animal and gain the following options...
Under Awaken it simply says one Tree or Animal. Again. I think your right. I just haven't been able to find the information that talks about you keeping your original Creature type. I had always gone off that assumption myself. But if it isn't in the rules...
Can anyone link the rule or FAQ?
You are what you are. Spells only do what they actually say. Inferring more is going about it incorrectly. If nothing says your type changes then it doesn't change.
So what your saying is you dont have the rule. I understand the rules dont have to spell out every detail. But a question like this is not a small detail. Whether a Druid can cast Animal Growth on himself in Animal form is a big deal. Whether Polymorph makes wizards vulnerable to Dominate Animal is important.
The fact it doesn't talk about creature type is kinda central to the whole Idea of Polymorph and its ilk. I would think it would metion SOMEWHERE " O btw. You Creature type doesn't change and you do not qualify as a valid target for spells that target creatures you change into." Like I said. I think this is how it works.... I just wanted to see it in writing.
Those questions are moot because nothing changes your type in those spells or that class of spell.
Polymorph has been about gaining abilities and other benefits, not changing your type. There have been a TON of questions that have been met directly with "why would it do this if it doesn't say it does?" style responses from members of the design team. They don't try to spell out all edge cases and expect at least a modicum of, please forgive the term as it can be taken in a hostile way, common sense. Spells only do what they say they do and only ever attempt to explain those effects it directly puts in place.
Re-check the "Polymorph" sub-school of Transmutation in the CRB's Magic chapter - I'm almost certain there's a line that specifies that these spells, though they may alter a creature's form, do not actually alter its fundamental type.
If you need evidence that a change in type will always be specifically stated (rather than presumed), check the Bestiary descriptions for templates: those that involve such a change (such as the Vampire template) always specifically call out that "the creature's type changes..."
It doesn't say a thing about Creature Type. That is my issue. I cant find anywhere where it says one way or the other. Which brings up questions on whether Druids can use animal buffs on themselves while wildshaped, You can use Awaken on a Baleful Polymorph, ect.
Transmutation
Subschools
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes), changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.