Escaping a Grapple and bonuses to CMD


Rules Questions

Sczarni

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

When looking at my character, I noticed the Human Fighter alternate favored class ability allows you to boost your CMD against two combat maneuvers. Upon further examination of the combat maneuvers, I also discovered that in order to escape a grapple, you have to overcome your opponent's CMD (with either a CMB or Escape Artist roll). That makes me wonder: can a human fighter choose to boost their CMD to resist grapple attempts as well as make their grapples harder to escape from?

I discovered that Improved Grapple has a similar text, so I included it as well, below.

Advanced Race Guide wrote:
Fighter: Add +1 to the fighter's CMD when resisting two combat maneuvers of the character's choice.
Core Rulebook wrote:

Improved Grapple (Combat)

You are skilled at grappling opponents.

Prerequisite: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.

Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver.

Now, it's worth pointing out at this point that "escaping a grapple" can actually be done two ways. If someone elects to use CMB instead of Escape Artist, they can turn the grapple around on you. Arguably, in that case, you would be resisting a grapple. If so, then wouldn't it apply to all CMB rolls against CMD in that case? If so, then why should their CMD only be boosted conditional to the use of CMB - why not just increase the flat DC to escape with Escape Artist (since, indeed, the difficulty is otherwise the same).

Core Rulebook wrote:
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Since my character (or one of them for whom this issue might matter most) is in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, a concrete ruling as to how it works in that setting would be quite welcome! (I have two levels worth of favored class bonus I look forward to applying, either way!)


The fighter alternate ability from the ARG (so it should be based on race and class) is an always-on feature. You always get +1 to the 2 combat maneuvers CMD you choose.

Same for Improved Grapple, you always get a +2 to grapple CMD when someone tries to grapple you.

When escaping a grapple you make a combat maneuver check...not a grapple check. In this case the +2 from Improved Grapple to grapple CMD wouldn't apply, nor would the +1 from the Fighter alternate ability.

Now, if they were attempting to reverse the grapple, then they would be making a grapple check and those things would apply since they are attempting to grapple you.

The bonuses to CMD would not apply if an Escape Artist check is made...since that is not a grapple check it's an Escape Artist check.

Sczarni

However, by the RAW, it appears that you may not have to decide until after you've succeeded on the combat maneuver check whether you'd like to escape the grapple or reverse it. In that case, should the +2 to CMD apply as a blanket boost? Should you have to forswear the option to reverse the grapple (as suggested on another messageboard) to avoid the +2 to the difficulty of your check?

Core Rulebook wrote:
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Although the bolded text is ambiguous; perhaps you do need to decide beforehand what goal you want to pursue in the maneuver?


There is no written definition for if you HAVE to decide before hand as far as I can tell. So likely that will fluctuate depending on GM.


Thanatokleos wrote:
...can a human fighter choose to boost their CMD to resist grapple attempts as well as make their grapples harder to escape from?

As you pointed out,

ARG wrote:
Fighter: Add +1 to the fighter's CMD when resisting two combat maneuvers of the character's choice.

It says nothing about being able to adjust any other character's CMD. This is exclusively a defensive feature.

Sczarni

Well, what I mean is if a fighter possessing this or Improved Grapple successfully initiates a grapple, does that raise his effective CMD relating to other rolls made against him in grapple situations, such as those to escape/reverse grapple with CMB or escape grapple using Escape Artist?

If it is exclusively defensive, then it seems like it might apply should someone attempt to reverse the grapple on the fighter. But given that it's perhaps a bit ambiguous whether they need to announce their intention with the CMB roll before they know the result, it seems like perhaps it should apply to any CMB roll made against the fighter in a grapple. In which case, since the fighter would still be defending with his CMD against the character's attempts to escape with Escape Artist, why not also apply the bonus to his CMD for that purpose (since it's already serving a similar function for a CMB roll).

It's just a bit unclear how to delineate the line between 'offensive' and 'defensive' when it relates to use of CMD in a grapple. One easy solution would be to entirely prohibit the boost in any situation where you're already grappled, but what if someone tries to pin or move the fighter? it might be reasonable to restrict its use only to the defender in the grapple, but what if the fighter is the attacker, and the once-defender decides to reverse the grapple?

In any event, the RAW seems a bit ambiguous, and while house rules might solve the problem, I'm looking to understand the official grappling rules a bit better, both for my character in Organized Play and for myself when I GM for Organized Play.


Thanatokleos wrote:
When looking at my character, I noticed the Human Fighter alternate favored class ability allows you to boost your CMD against two combat maneuvers. Upon further examination of the combat maneuvers, I also discovered that in order to escape a grapple, you have to overcome your opponent's CMD (with either a CMB or Escape Artist roll). That makes me wonder: can a human fighter choose to boost their CMD to resist grapple attempts as well as make their grapples harder to escape from?

of course it does. When someone try toscape the grapple they are macking a grapple check, you are ressisting his intention with your CMD.

This work wonders with Hamatula strike.

Sczarni

Nicos wrote:
Thanatokleos wrote:
When looking at my character, I noticed the Human Fighter alternate favored class ability allows you to boost your CMD against two combat maneuvers. Upon further examination of the combat maneuvers, I also discovered that in order to escape a grapple, you have to overcome your opponent's CMD (with either a CMB or Escape Artist roll). That makes me wonder: can a human fighter choose to boost their CMD to resist grapple attempts as well as make their grapples harder to escape from?

of course it does. When someone try toscape the grapple they are macking a grapple check, you are ressisting his intention with your CMD.

This work wonders with Hamatula strike.

In that case, that also raises the question of whether the CMD opposing Escape Artist attempts would be increased. Since the CMD opposing other means of escaping a grapple is also increased, it would seem like it should be. However, by that point, a fighter seems to have gotten rather far from the original intention of the bonus, which is resisting a grapple combat maneuver.

(it also seems a little unclear by RAW whether to consider any Combat Maneuver roll in a grapple to strictly be considered 'an attempt to grapple you' for purposes of applying these bonuses)


Sorry Thanatokelos; my previous statement didn't do much to answer your question. I misinterpreted the question.

The human fighter substitute favored class ability should apply versus an opponent's attempts to break or reverse a grapple; or even to maintain a grapple that an opponent already has control over. Since an opponent's Escape Artist check is rolled vs. the fighter's CMD, it will still apply.

It shouldn't apply to *any* CMB roll made against the fighter in a grapple; for example, if someone was to try to disarm that grappled fighter, his CMD bonus vs. grapple wouldn't apply. That makes it very important to declare the nature of any dice roll before the roll is made.

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