I'm sad to have to burst the character's bubble, but you can't mix unarmed strikes and natural attacks that way.
To start out, an unarmed strike is considered an iterative attack, and natural attacks are treated differently when combined with iterative attacks. Natural attacks are all designated as either primary or secondary. If you use only natural attacks, all primary attacks are used at your full attack bonus, and your secondary attacks are used at your attack bonus -5. If you attack with an unarmed strike, all of the natural attacks you take that round will be treated as secondary attacks, giving them a -5 to hit. Also, you cannot use a single hand to both attack with claws and attack with an unarmed strike. Which means that build would end up with the rotation of:
Unarmed Strike +6 / 1 bite +1 / 1 claw +1
At this point, you're better off leaving out the unarmed strike and going exclusively into natural attacks, giving you:
1 bite +6 / 2 claws +6
which will do more damage on average.
Now, a monk can mix natural attacks into his flurry of blows at no penalty if he takes the Feral Combat Training feat, but he still cannot flurry and apply all of his natural attacks.
That being said, I fully support this character concept, and I made a list of a few things that can be done with natural attacks here.
Now, as for the original question. If you're playing in PFS rules, you can't apply the bestiary feats unless they're granted by another source. If you're not playing PFS, I highly recommend MultiAttack. Improved Natural Attack doesn't seem to grant enough to be worth the feat it's costing you. You could also look at the Bludgeoner+Enforcer combo with a level in rogue with the thug archetype. Most natural attacks count as at least partially bludgeoning and would trigger the feat, so you could make an intimidate check to demoralize with every successful attack.
Better yet, be a tengu barbarian with the claw alternative trait and then take beast totem. Put the beast totem claws on your feet.
Now you have claw/claw/claw/claw/bite all at full BAB while raging.
I'm afraid there's been a forum post ruling that you can't put claws on your feet. You can, however put talons there, or hooves if you can get a wand of Monstrous Extremities, or put those claws on additional arms if you can get them.
I love building natural attackers, there's so many fun ways to try it out, even despite the odd rulings. The character I'm playing now is a weapon finesse natural attacker who will eventually build up to claw/claw/bite/hair/hoof/hoof/gore/tentacle/tentacle
Primary and secondary are terms for how easy they are to use, not for the order in which they're taken. So, using the claw/claw/bite/hair/hoof/hoof/gore/tentacle/tentacle rotation for my intended character as an example. The claws are primary natural attacks, as they are written to use full attack bonus, the bite is a primary natural attack granted by the Ring of Rat Fangs, the hair is a primary natural attack granted by the White Haired Witch archetype, the gore is a primary natural attack granted by the barbarian rage power Lesser Fiend Totem, the hooves are secondary attacks granted by the spell Monstrous Extremities (from Faiths of Corruption), and the tentacles are secondary natural attacks granted by the Tentacle Cloak. These are listed explicitly on those items, and when combined with only natural attacks, always use the listed descriptor of primary or secondary. If combined with a weapon or other iterative attack (like unarmed strikes) all natural attacks become secondary attacks, even if listed as being otherwise normally. If you're uncertain if an attack is one type or another, you can use the Universal Monster Rules section on Natural Attacks in the bestiary as a general guideline.
You could try taking two levels of Alchemist to get the Feral Mutagen for two claws and a bite. Or sorcerer with the draconic bloodline, barbarian with the beast totem, an animal shaman, a natural weapon style ranger... the list goes on and on.
As a human, you could take the two feats Racial Heritage(Kobold) and Tail Terror to get a tail attack in addition to whatever other attacks you can stack up.
No claws on the feet now, ok. I guess that is now in the FAQ somewhere?
As for the unarmed strike followed by two claws and one bite, I don't understand why you are saying that he can not do that.
Could he not kick, claw, claw, bite? I agree that it is not optimal, but it is possible is it not. Unless, there is some other new ruling that I do not know about.
here's the CRB notes on natural attacks:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
That last paragraph is the important one for what I'm saying.
As for kick/claw/claw/bite, I have no idea. I was under the impression that using feet for unarmed attacks was limited to flurrying monks, although I may be mistaken there.*edit* I looked up the rules on unarmed strikes and it would appear that I am apparently mistaken there. You could do kick/claw/claw/bite, but the claws and bite would be at -5 BAB. The more you know.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
First, there's a lot of misinformation here. Let me clarify a few things:
1. Improved Unarmed Strike does not give you the ability to kick. Anyone can kick or headbutt by using an Unarmed Strike, according to the Combat chapter of the CRB. The only thing Improved Unarmed Strike gives you is the negation of the Attack of Opportunity for striking unarmed. It basically makes you "armed" while unarmed, like a Monk.
2. Unarmed attacks are not always considered an iterative attack. To be clear, the term "iterative attack" is not anywhere in any Paizo rulebook. It's a fabricated game term. What you'd be looking for is either primary or off-hand, in the case of manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes, or primary or secondary, in the case of natural weapons.
At any rate, you can be a level 1 Tengu Monk and completely justified in doing a full-attack rotation of Claw/Claw/Beak/Kick/Kick, so long as each of those attacks come from a different limb (which they do) and you take the appropriate penalties for two-weapon fighting and the natural attacks becoming secondaries.
3. You can indeed mix unarmed strikes and natural weapons in exactly the way you describe. As long as you're using a different limb for each attack, it's perfectly feasible to do claw/claw/bite/kick. Or even claw/claw/bite/kick/kick, so long as you take the penalty for two-weapon fighting with that second kick. Noteworthy here is that a Monk has no offhand attacks when striking unarmed. So the kick (or both kicks) would be made at full BAB. It might be worth dipping into Monk for 2 levels for a build such as this, for both that reason, and the ability to get either Feral Combat Training or give up Flurry for Master of Many Styles (which adds to your natural/unarmed damage dice). Also noteworthy is that weaving natural weapons with manufactured or unarmed strikes makes ALL natural attacks secondary. So they happen at full BAB -5. This is completely RAW legal, but many consider will it against RAI, so check with your DM beforehand. To date, there is no Errata or FAQ saying you cannot do it.
4. There is also no official FAQ or Errata saying that claws cannot be put on feet. It was indeed answered in an unofficial thread named "Ask JJ" where he says claw attacks are for hands, talons are for feet. Again, let me be clear. This is his specific opinion on that specific ability. The RAW does not specify claws on hands only in any official Paizo product, FAQ, or Errata. It was not answered with the profile "Pathfinder Design Team", the profile they use now to designate an official rules change sanctioned by the "Big 3".
The reason behind their RAI of not having claws on feet is because it breaks the limitations of certain feats such as Feral Combat Training and Weapon Focus. You'd have 4 weapons they would apply to instead of the intended 2. So, most DM's will allow you to use the mechanic, but reclassify the "feet claws" as talons so you'll have to retake the appropriate feats and preserve the balance.
5. Be aware that you cannot normally gore and bite unless you have multiple heads. Natural attacks are limited to one per limb, per natural attack rules, and the gore attack comes from either tusks or horns, both of which manifest on the head. There are specific monster races that can do both, but I'm willing to bet your Barb/Druid is not a Gargoyle. However, being shapeshifted and then raging, which adds the gore attack afterwards, is a rather grey area that your DM will have to clarify. By RAW it both works and doesn't work. I can see the argument that the transformation and then the rage makes you into a temporary Dire version of whatever you're shapeshifted into, which, again, must get clarified by your specific DM.
From level 4 on, i will only use my natural attacks (one gore and one bite as primary attacks and two claws at secondary attacks.)
Thanks alot.
If you use ONLY the natural attacks from level 4 onward, all of those natural weapons are primary attacks, and they would all be made at full BAB, and use your full STR bonus.
Again, be aware that you will need DM approval to bite and gore from the same limb, since the Fiend Totem ability makes you sprout horns on your head.
Secondary natural attacks are things like hooves, wings, and tails normally. There's a chart and a list in the Universal Monster Rules section. When in doubt, default to the specific ability. The bear shaman ability and the barbarian fiend totem both specify that their attacks are primary.
Lots of stuff.
Misinformation? Not on purpose at least. You have said everything I wanted to say, but more concisely, more fluidly, and more correctly. Thanks for catching the mistake about the claws on the feet being a James Jacobs ruling and not an official ruling, I had missed that.
The only point of contention I have with your post is that Bite and Gore may be interpreted as legal by RAW due to the phrasing being that you can have an additional natural attack for each "limb or body part" capable of making the attack. As it's not restricted exclusively to limbs, or independently rotating body parts, you can reasonably read that as allowing an attack for both gore and bite as they are different body parts, even if they are not independently rotating body parts.
The only point of contention I have with your post is that Bite and Gore may be interpreted as legal by RAW due to the phrasing being that you can have an additional natural attack for each "limb or body part" capable of making the attack. As it's not restricted exclusively to limbs, or independently rotating body parts, you can reasonably read that as allowing an attack for both gore and bite as they are different body parts, even if they are not independently rotating body parts.
Hmm, point taken. As the Fiend Totem clearly states that you grow a new body part in the form of horns, I would allow that both the teeth for the bite and the horns for the gore are indeed possible.
Strike number 5 as incorrect, OP. The rest of my "lots of stuff" is right on the money.
(I have a certain passion for natural attackers myself. I try to limit it down to 6 attacks, which is what a level 20 fighter would have while wielding two weapons with normal feat progression. That still gives me claw/claw/bite/tail/wing/wing with my insane Dragon Disciple build.)
For gore and bite look at the catoblepas. It seems to have no problems using horns and biting at the same time...
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/catoblepas.html#_cato blepas
