[PFS] Light Pick TWF build, archaeologist concept

[Jiggy]

Hello all,

I recently acquired a PFS boon that lets a character be an expedition manager: I can use Prestige Points (PP) to fund an archaeological dig, and a scenario later, I get an unearthed item with a value determined by how much PP I spent (2PP gets an item worth up to 1,000gp, 4PP up to 2,000gp, and 6PP up to 3,500gp).

Between wanting to make a PC who might actually do that kind of thing (i.e., likes archaeology/digging) and also wanting to make a PC who could really use the little wealth boost (i.e., a build that's normally kind of expensive), I was thinking of making a TWF ranger who fights with a pair of light picks.

I'm thinking ranger, probably with the Urban and Guide archetypes. They seem like decent flavor fits (especially Urban's trap-disabling), and despite being perhaps less optimal in the long run, I like the flexibility of Ranger's Focus over Favored Enemy (and I don't think FE fits the concept very well).

Seems to me that, stat-wise, a TWF build begs for a dual-talented human:

STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 08

First feat would be TWF, obviously.
Now, alternatively, I could go with a half-elf. This would let me take the Dual-Minded alternate racial trait to shore up my Will save (+2), get some other nifty racial features, and possibly even the Arcane Training alternate racial trait to let me activate items as though I were a 1st-level wizard. Thus, I could (without fail) use a wand to load up a spell-storing ioun stone with shield, carry some nifty utility scrolls without needing UMD, etc. On the other hand, stats would be a little rougher without that second +2 that a dual-talented human would get:

STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 12 (need it if I want to use scrolls with Arcane Training)
WIS 10 (have to get a headband later for ranger spells)
CHA 07

The stats make me cringe a little, but the half-elf (especially with Arcane Training) sure would offer a lot of extra versatility.

Any thoughts on the race choice?

[Lamontius]

Since it is PFS and you are building a character that has a mechanic to gain more items/equipment/gold-value, you might consider going NON-dual-talented and picking up the extra feat choice, since TWF-builds are pretty feat-intensive

CHA 07 in PFS makes me cringe, but I like the rest for flavor and concept

[Jiggy]

Lamontius wrote:

Since it is PFS and you are building a character that has a mechanic to gain more items/equipment/gold-value, you might consider going NON-dual-talented and picking up the extra feat choice, since TWF-builds are pretty feat-intensive

Well, ranger bonus feats will help with that:

First is TWF, then at 2nd I take Double Slice as my bonus feat. Then at 6th I get another bonus feat, which would be ITWF, and at 10th I can even pick up GTWF early. And I don't even need to meet prereqs!

So aside from the TWF line itself, are there any feats that are essential to a TWF build? Because if not, then my ranger bonus feats basically have the whole chain covered, so I'm not seeing the need for that extra feat. Did I miss something?

[Rory]

Arcane Training: Half-elves occasionally seek tutoring to help them master the magic in their blood. Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class, and it must be an arcane spellcasting class. They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented racial trait.

Jiggy wrote:

Now, alternatively... possibly even the Arcane Training alternate racial trait to let me activate items as though I were a 1st-level wizard. Thus, I could (without fail) use a wand to load up a spell-storing ioun stone with shield, carry some nifty utility scrolls without needing UMD, etc.

If you went half elf ranger and took this trait, you'd lose out on all your favored class bonuses of going ranger.

Was this your intent?

With the ability to disable traps and focusing on light picks, a race that has darkvision makes sense to me. You'd have the ability to sneak in the dark as well.

[Jiggy]

Yes, I know it costs me my FCBs for my whole career, but thanks for checking. :)

I don't value darkvision too highly for this guy; needing a light source for his work doesn't hurt the concept at all, I'm not interested in stealthing around in the dark, and all the darkvision races are less appealing to me for this build than human or half-elf are.

[Rory]

The human would have +2 hitpoints per level, which might be important to you, but I think either race would work well.

I'd be remiss not to mention the archaelogist bard (bard 1 / ranger 11?), which I'm certain you've already nixed. You could have a darkvision gnome dual wielding the gnome racial weapon (it has a pick, right?) This would let you capitalize on 1.5x STR and Power Attack for this times you only get one strike. It's definitely not as strong attacking, but it's very flavorful.

[Lamontius]

Rory hit a couple of points that were on my mind already, food for thought

if I had to choose between the two that seem to appeal most to you, Jiggy, I would choose Human

I think you have more options in that regard and more to work with, either stat-wise or feat-wise

[Jiggy]

Rory wrote:

The human would have +2 hitpoints per level, which might be important to you, but I think either race would work well.

It's funny, I was okay with missing out on FCBs, and I was okay with having 2 less CON, but it somehow didn't dawn on me that I was looking at both at the same time. Yikes. Major point in favor of human. Thanks for pointing that out. :/

Quote:

I'd be remiss not to mention the archaelogist bard (bard 1 / ranger 11?), which I'm certain you've already nixed. You could have a darkvision gnome dual wielding the gnome racial weapon (it has a pick, right?) This would let you capitalize on 1.5x STR and Power Attack for this times you only get one strike. It's definitely not as strong attacking, but it's very flavorful.

EWWW GNOMES

GO AWAY GNOMES

[paddywagon man]

I honestly don't think TWF should be your first feat. take it as your bonus feat at 2nd level. the reason behind this is that if you take TWF at level 1 you are basically stuck with double slice as your bonus feat, and double slice is a not a very good feat. also, this way you don't need such high dexterity (because you get TWF, improved TWF, etc. through bonus feats) and can make the rest of your stats much higher. at first level just you use a 2-handed weapon and put your feat into something else.

[Rory]

Aawww... but this gnome was raised by dwarves and speaks with a dwarvish accent. He cultivates his beard, stores old chicken bones in it, orders ale by the quart, and is proud of his name Shortbeard. He boldly struts his heritage and raucously laughs when he introduces himself as a true dwarf's dwarf.

But, as the jigginess of nature would have it, Shortbeard goes down in history as being roasted on a spit of his own racial pyromaniac pyre. The trolls were happy to celebrate the day and meal.

Go Human!

[Jiggy]

doorknob head wrote:

I honestly don't think TWF should be your first feat. take it as your bonus feat at 2nd level. the reason behind this is that if you take TWF at level 1 you are basically stuck with double slice as your bonus feat, and double slice is a not a very good feat.

What's so bad about Double Slice? It's +2 damage at 2nd, and eventually becomes +3 and even +4 damage. How is that a bad feat?

Quote:

also, this way you don't need such high dexterity (because you get TWF, improved TWF, etc. through bonus feats) and can make the rest of your stats much higher. at first level just you use a 2-handed weapon and put your feat into something else.

Which stats exactly are you suggesting need to be "much higher"? (Assume for now that I'm starting with the human array I listed, rather than the half-elf.)

[Sir Thugsalot]

Jiggy wrote:

EWWW GNOMES GO AWAY GNOMES

But you are a gnome! ...look in the mirror.

(Make a will-save.)

...on a more serious and crunchy note, exploring ways to achieve coup de grace in combat would give you one-hit/one-kill power with a x4 weapon.

[Atarlost]

To match damage with a two handed build by the power attack standard you need +10 in non-strength bonus damage. With double slice you can count half your strength bonus. With Two Weapon Rend things get more complicated, but with the added damage roll and 1.5x strength things get better. A lot better. I haven't done detailed math, but I'm pretty sure any strength based TWF build is going to be close to a two handed build at that point.

[Sir Thugsalot]

Hmmm.... Hexcrafter magus coup de gracing everyone he just Slumber hexed....

[blackbloodtroll]

Why not Dwarf?

[Sir Thugsalot]

Jiggy wrote:

I'm thinking ranger, probably with the Urban and Guide archetypes. They seem like decent flavor fits (especially Urban's trap-disabling), and despite being perhaps less optimal in the long run, I like the flexibility of Ranger's Focus over Favored Enemy (and I don't think FE fits the concept very well).

Seems to me that, stat-wise, a TWF build begs for a dual-talented human:

STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 16 (14+2)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 08

First feat would be TWF, obviously.

Given the pumped strength and dumped charisma, you might as well toss some barbarian in there too. Kind of a Bruce Banner meets Indiana Jones type who really gets pissed off when Ronald Lacey crashes his dig.

STR+17 (bump 4th,12th+tome)
DEX:15 (bump 8th)
CON:14
INT:10
WIS:14
CHA:07

01 barb1 [archetype?] Extra Rage, Raging Vitality
02 rang1 [archetype?]
03 rang2 [TWF], Double Slice
04 barb2 STR>18, [Reckless Abandon +1]
05 barb3 FEAT
06 barb4 [Reckless Abandon +2][RAGE POWER]
07 barb5 or rang3, I-TWF (dex belt)

...around 6th, with a strength belt, TWF attack bonus is 6[BAB]+7[rage:STR]+1[enh]+2[Reck]-2[TWF] = +14/+14/+09

Damage is adequate, but shabby by 2hPA standards.

TWFing a gnome hooked hammer or urgosh will generate a steady +1 damage every hit versus a heavy/light pick combo, both ends of the double-weapon benefit from Weapon Focus, and you aren't stymied by skeletons.

The hooked hammer is also a nice tripping weapon, and gives you the option of 2hPA on a move+standard without dropping an off-hand weapon.

[Alex Cunningham]

A few months ago I worked up a light-pick using fighter-type (a former jeweler/treasure hunter), and I'd suggest this:

Ranger/Fighter-->Duelist.

(I had Fighter (Tactician).)

Technically, a light pick is a light piercing weapon, so it works with the duelist's abilities, and the incentive to have a high INT works with the idea of an archeologist.

Either way, best of luck!

[paddywagon man]

Jiggy wrote:

doorknob head wrote:

I honestly don't think TWF should be your first feat. take it as your bonus feat at 2nd level. the reason behind this is that if you take TWF at level 1 you are basically stuck with double slice as your bonus feat, and double slice is a not a very good feat.

What's so bad about Double Slice? It's +2 damage at 2nd, and eventually becomes +3 and even +4 damage. How is that a bad feat?

Quote:

also, this way you don't need such high dexterity (because you get TWF, improved TWF, etc. through bonus feats) and can make the rest of your stats much higher. at first level just you use a 2-handed weapon and put your feat into something else.

Which stats exactly are you suggesting need to be "much higher"? (Assume for now that I'm starting with the human array I listed, rather than the half-elf.)

I think double slice is overrated because the +2 only applies to off-hand attacks, which require full attacks, which you don't always get. compare to power attack. power attack is a +2 to damage even if you don't full attack - +3 damage if you do. and because dual talent humans get no bonus feat, you can't take them both at level one.

and in response to your second question, higher wisdom would certainly be nice. int or con wouldn't hurt either.