Wall of stone?

[Mathius]

Can you reduce the area to make the wall thicker?

If you entrap a creature but the wall does not actually boarder him does it still get a save?

If you make a disk protruding from a wall that will break of and fall and there is a creature below what happens?

Can you thin it more then once?

[Karuth]

Can you reduce the area to make the wall thicker?

Since the spell has the special "shapeable" and the text says you can give it almost any shape you want (such as bridges, cranellations, etc...) you can do that yes.
Even if it weren't possible, you could just place two wall squares with normal thickness directly behind each other, thus creating the double thick wall again.

If you entrap a creature but the wall does not actually boarder him does it still get a save?

That is a tricky question. Per the rules it always gets a save (you get a save also when hit by a fireball even though it has a 20ft radius).
But at some point it would get rather ridiculous (for example a staggered merfolk with 5ft land speed and you build the wall 10 ft away... it would take it 12 seconds to even reach the wall).
If I remember correctly, a note on Reflex saves says that the GM may disallow a save under certain conditions, so best is to ask him.

As a rule of thumb, if the edge of a wall is within 1 move increment of said creature it should get a save... but that is not official ruling. While the game treats it as an instantaneous appearing wall, I assume it looks much more like earth bending. The wall descends from the ground or something giving fast characters a moment to hop over it.

If you make a disk protruding from a wall that will break of and fall and there is a creature below what happens?

If you are good enough to build something like that (I as GM would call for a Knowledge(Engineering) or maybe Craft(stonecutting) check for something like that) it would then deal damage according to the table "Damage from Falling Objects".

Can you thin it more then once?

While it is not explicitly stated I think you can. If you are for example 16th level your wall has a thickness of 4 inches. Halving it twice result in a 1 inch wall, which is what a 1st level caster could do. If you have a 3 inch thick wall you could also drop it to 1 to get 3 times the wall squares.

[Pizza Lord]

Mathius wrote:

If you entrap a creature but the wall does not actually boarder him does it still get a save?

The spell says that it is possible, but difficult and that a mobile creature can avoid entrapment. So, depending on how mobile a creature is, it's a judgement call. I would say yes they would in most circumstances.

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If you make a disk protruding from a wall that will break of and fall and there is a creature below what happens?

You cannot make a formation like this. The spell is very clear that the creation 'must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone.' It even goes so far as to require arches and buttresses while making spans.

You cannot create the wall of stone in such a manner that it is not solidly supported. Are there ways around it? Yes, such as making the disk with a solid supporting column which you then destroy or knock over by some other means, but not through the singular use of this spell.

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Can you thin it more then once?

My interpretation is no.

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Can you reduce the area to make the wall thicker?

No, that is not an option.

Karuth wrote:

Since the spell has the special "shapeable" and...

..Even if it weren't possible, you could just place two wall squares with normal thickness directly behind each other, thus creating the double thick wall again.

It is not possible to layer the wall dimensions that closely, even with the (S) Shapeable trait. It would require specific wording in the spell to allow the exeption, fortunately, wall spells are actually pretty good about detailing their abilities in regards to shape-ability, whether they can appear in occupied squares, whether they must be vertical, etc.

(S) Shapeable wrote:

If an area or effect entry ends with “(S),” you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas.

I will note that the bold portion in the (S) quote would seem to indicate you need to shape the wall at least 10 ft. high whenever doing such is possible, ie. not in a corridor, I think the 5-foot Effect of the wall of stone probably trumps this, but even lowering the restriction to 5 feet wouldn't change the outcome.

You could get around this by using a second wall of stone and layering it behind the first, but not by doubling back one casting on itself. Certain classes might receive abilities that alter areas of effect and such, but even these usually have a 5' foot limit, which while more generous than (S) still wouldn't allow layering.

[Karuth]

"A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet."

I think this refers to spells like Fire Storm that is measured in cubes.

The examples given with the spell "Wall of Stone" indicate a high flexibility what can be done with the spell.
Just think of the bridge example. If you are over 20 ft it must be arched and buttressed. That means you can form pillars with wall of stone which surely are thicker than a few inches.
Then it also mentions crenellations and battlements which are rather complicated forms and can decrease and increase thickness as well.

As such I interpret the listing in the rules as examples what is possible and not a full list of all things you can do. It would just take up too much space to list every possible option you have.

Otherwise the term "almost any shape you desire" would refer to:
Wall
Ramp
Bridge
Wall with holes to shoot through
Wall with 1/2 thickness.

I would not call that "any shape I desire". I would call that "a good start".

The only restriction in the spell's description is that it must connect to exisiting stone. And that's it.

[Mathius]

I tend to agree with Karuth. If you use shape stone you can cover 10x10 hallway with almost 3 inches of of stone while at 10 level and the same caster would only get 2 inches with a spell 2 levels higher.

I think i like the idea that if you it does not border you then you do not get a save, but am not sure.

Other opinions?

[Pizza Lord]

Mathius, your example is misleading. A few things to note:

Mathius wrote:

If you use shape stone you can cover 10x10 hallway with almost 3 inches of of stone while at 10 level and the same caster would only get 2 inches with a spell 2 levels higher. [Wall of Stone]

First, while it's true that Wall of Stone is 2 levels higher, that's only for a cleric. It's only 1 level higher for others who get stone shape (Druids being excluded since they can't cast the spells in your example at 10th-level.) That really has little bearing on how the spells do what they're supposed to do, which I'll try and show by expanding on your example a bit lower. For now, focusing on the game effects you're pointing out:

At 10th level with Stone Shape, you can affect up to 20 1-ft. cubes (10 + 1/level). That could fill an 8x10 ft. wide corridor with 3 inch thick stone, assuming you have the 20 cubic feet of stone available. For the 10x10 ft. corridor that you point out, it isn't 'almost 3 inches', it's closer to 2 and a half inches. The only way you can justify counting it as 3 inches, as in your example, is if you're rounding up.

In almost all cases, that's not how rounding works in the game. According to mechanics, hit points and hardness are measured by inches, and while I have no problem adjusting hit points based on half an inch by merely dividing such stats to get an appropriate number, you can't say the same as you're not even rounding to the nearest whole number or even half number. For instance, at 15 hit points per inch, I can rule that a half-inch section gets 7.5 hit points (rounded down, by the way.)

So while a 10th-level caster with stone shape could make a 2.5 inch thick stone wall to block a 10x10 ft. corridor and a similar caster with wall of stone could only block that same corridor to 2 inches in thickness (1 inch per 4 caster levels, which interesting enough would actually equal 2.5 inches if it went by 0.5 inches/2 caster levels) you conveniently forgot to mention that such a caster could actually seal a corridor or even a room of up to 10 ft. high x 25 ft. across to that same thickness. Your example is purposefully shortchanging Wall of Stone's effect.

For your caster to actually seal a 10x10 ft. corridor, as in your example, with 3 inches of stone using Stone Shape would require him to be 15th level. At 12th level, a caster with Wall of Stone easily accomplishes this and has eight 5-ft. squares left over (enough to seal off a room 3 times as wide). You can do the math on how many caster levels your stone shape caster needs to try and accomplish the same feat, just remember that with every 4 caster levels you increase, wall of stone will have gotten another inch in thickness and require even more stone shape levels for the same area (and assuming you can get that much cubic feet of material, which WoS doesn't even require.)

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I think i like the idea that if you it does not border you then you do not get a save, but am not sure.

It would be a judgement call for me too. However, let me ask if you think it's possible to entrap a creature with stone shape in the same manner wall of stone. Is it not possible because it doesn't say it allows it like WoS does, though with difficulty? Would you let stone shape just pull the stone floor out from under someone's feet 5 or 10 feet away, making them trip, stumble, or even fall? Would they get a Reflex save for the hole? I believe yes, and if they pass they've leaped to safe ground. So while allowing movement in most cases for a Reflex save is not common, there's certain circumstances where you have to go with it, just like someone being enclosed in a wall of stone.

Karuth wrote:

"A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet."

I think this refers to spells like Fire Storm that is measured in cubes.

It does refer to those. It also refers to other spells with (S), like Wall of Stone. How it refers to them may differ with how it refers to the use of cubes or three-dimensional effects, since the WoS effect is in 5-ft. squares rather than cubes, but it applies nonetheless.

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The examples given with the spell "Wall of Stone" indicate a high flexibility what can be done with the spell.

I don't disagree that it is very versatile compared to other Wall-type spells.

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Just think of the bridge example. If you are over 20 ft it must be arched and buttressed. That means you can form pillars with wall of stone which surely are thicker than a few inches.

Nowhere does requiring a span to be arched and buttressed imply that the spell allows you to form pillars of any significant size (ie, ones that would fill a square). The term 'buttress' doesn't mean columned or pillared, it means supported, which can be done with bracing, even narrow slatted supports running parallel along the underside of the arch from one end to the other. Even if you wish to rule in your game that it does say pillar or column anywhere in the spell regarding a bridge or span, that would be in the specific case of making a bridge or span, which also specifically reduces the spell's area by half.

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Then it also mentions crenelations and battlements which are rather complicated forms and can decrease and increase thickness as well.

I'm not sure whose idea might be that crenelations and battlements are 'rather complicated'. They are just a wall, simply a higher portion of staggered wall atop a wall (a crenel is specifically the part where a wall isn't.) Regardless, at no point does it imply that creating battlements allows one to thicken the wall or even thin it (beyond the overall option of doubling the spell's area by halving the thickness). It actually goes on to state that even such simplistic alterations are 'crudely formed' at best. Also, it specifically states that doing so reduces the area not the thickness. As for whether that means it reduces it by half like an arched and buttress bridge or by the additional area used might be up for debate. For example, does a 10x10 ft. wall that has crenelations/battlements which are 1-sq. ft. high and wide and spaced at 1 foot intervals along the top use up one of your 5-foot sections or does adding these crudely formed additions reduce your actual available material by half? Either way, the crenelations would still be 3 inches thick, just like the rest of the wall.

With the wall of stone spell, a 12th-level caster gets 12 5-ft. sections of 3-inch thick stone wall. At its simple basic use, a 3-inch thick, 30-ft. long 10-ft. high stone wall. You can double the area, getting 24 5-ft. section by making them 1.5 inches thick. You could also use the same dimensions to create a stone floor.

The same caster could theoretically make a 60-ft. long 5-ft. wide bridge, but since that's over 20 ft. long that means the amount of area he gets to work with is halved. So he can make 30-ft. long 5-ft. wide bridge by arching and buttressing it, the bridge is still only 3 inches thick. Just because he had to reduce the area doesn't mean he gets a freebie on adding thickness. He could double the dimensions of his bridge if he halves its thickness to 1.5 inches. Just how strong an arched, buttressed stone bridge is at 3 inches or 1.5 inches might take some guessing, but at least you can get the hit points and break DC.

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Otherwise the term "almost any shape you desire" would refer to:...

The things you listed are exactly what it refers to, with the exception of the half thickness one, which has nothing to do with the shape. You have to look at what its being compared with. The phrase you quote actually starts with, 'Unlike a wall of iron...'. The wall of iron spell gives you a flat, vertical sheet, that's it. That's all you get. Yes you could then push it over to form a bridge, but otherwise it's very strict. Unlike a wall of iron, a wall of stone is able to be curved, formed into a square, created horizontally or at an angle, made convex or concave, or even formed into a circular ring (regardless of what a pain that makes on a square grid.)

If I had a spell that created a backpack or a sack in any shape desired, it still has to maintain the basics of being a backpack or a sack, not a pillow. Similarly, a tree able to be formed into any shape doesn't mean you get an object with bark throughout. With wall of stone you get sections of stone which have an indicated thickness. If it were intended for them to be made thicker it would be very clear. If you create a 50-ft. long wall, it's going to have the same thickness whether it's straight, curved, rounded, or formed into a square. You won't have one area that's twice as thick as another.

Wall spells are among the best written spells in relation to other spell series in terms of how they function and can be used and how they work, not to say that they're perfect or that questions don't occur about their use in certain situations, but each one is almost complete in the basics of its function without relying on rulings from elsewhere in the book.

[Oliver McShade]

I agree with most of what pizza lord said.

except:

I would always give a reflex saving throw to creature, unless they could not move/helpless/paralyzed/etc.

I do think you can double the thickness, buy pancaking one 5'foot square next to the other, due to the shape-able nature of the spell, and "you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire." notation. As bridges, battlement, and stone cages are no longer true walls.

[Karuth]

Pizza Lord wrote:

The term 'buttress' doesn't mean columned or pillared, it means supported, which can be done with bracing, even narrow slatted supports running parallel along the underside of the arch from one end to the other

According to LEO (I am not native speaker) one of the translations for buttress is column/pillar. But since that might not be the best translation possible I did a google image search for 'buttress' to get an idea how a buttress looks. Funnily most pictures show churches and buildings instead of a bridges.

From what I gathered of the images is that a buttress is flat plane that gets thicker at the ends where it connects to a wall, column or other structure. So it basically it is a wall, rotated by 90° to lie flat and then made thicker to support more weight. And this is just what the original poster wanted, more thickness but less area. He just needs to shape the wall into a buttressed bridge placed vertically to get the thicker wall.

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The things you listed are exactly what it refers to...

I just wanted to call attention to the wording. If I would refer to a list of 3-5 items I would not use the wording "almost anything". I would write "these are the options you have".

As such I think that the spell initially was planned to be interpreted as: "You get this much stone. Put it in an shape you want."

But it depends on the GM. There are some GMs that do not allow any action that is not covered by descriptions in the book or there are GMs that interpret rules very openly to allow for experimentation.
So I'd advise the Original Poster to ask his GM about this or if he is the GM to decide how strict he wants to handle rules.

[Pizza Lord]

Karuth wrote:

As such I think that the spell initially was planned to be interpreted as: "You get this much stone. Put it in any shape you want."

No, you get this much stone 'wall' of a specified thickness. Put it in any shape you want.' The wall must be a continuous line and because it is (S) you can bend and curve it, unlike most other walls by following the rules for (S).

While you might have an argument that the (S) dimension limit could be in 5-ft dimensions for the specific instance of wall of stone, I don't see any evidence for that other than an aversion to forcing the wall to be of at least 10 feet in height. If they had intended for a 12th-level caster to get 12 5-ft. square, 3-inch thick sections and layer them into one 3-foot thick wall, they would have said so. They didn't because the rules for (S) are easy to look at and the spell is very clear about what it can do and what it can be used for and states the instances and specifics for when its dimensions and thickness can be altered and how.

Wall of stone is incredibly versatile. It allows a lot of leeway that other wall spells can't even come close to being able to do. If you want to be the guy that when given an inch tries to take a mile and claim that you can create stone statues, fluted columns, and onion domes go ahead. I consider that to be not only an attempted abuse of the spell, but the attempted abuse of an already generous spell. Similar to stealing from someone who just gave you money to help you out.

That's just my view, however.

[TrollBoi]

Can the wall be reduced in thickness beyond the one inch? My question relates to creating incredibly thin and weak portions of wall that could be used for traps or pitfalls.

Do you think it would be thinned out until the hardness is reduced to allow a person to break through it with a foot fall?

[seebs]

I don't think you can reduce it that far. I think you just have to do that later with something like stone shape.

[Pizza Lord]

Generally the minimum thickness for wall of stone is going to be 1-inch, and you can always cast a spell at a lower level. Then the specifics of the spell allow you to halve the thickness by doubling the area. Since the spell does not give a minimum thickness (such as, 'always at least 1-inch thick') then you can claim you are using that option; whether you actually use the left over area of the spell or not.

So I would say that yes, you can get a half-inch thick section of wall, but that would be the minimum thickness just per the spell itself.

Unless the material says its hardness is based on thickness, which I don't believe stone does (it has 8 hardness whether 1-inch or 15 inches) then it still has 8 hardness at a half-inch, but since its hit points are based on thickness, it would have half of 15 (or 7.5 rounded down to 7). Also its Break DC would be lowered to 20. So it's still as hard as stone but it's way easier to destroy. Otherwise, you'd have to conclude that a half-inch thick stone wall has 0 hit points which, by terms of the spell, would breach the wall and destroy it and that would be a sudden problem for half-inch thick wall everywhere regardless of construction.

That's the Rules part.

As for making break-through floors, that's a judgement call, most such traps use a brittle stone or stone that's been scored or altered to crack or snap. Typically, concrete can support 2000 pounds of pressure per square inch before cracking (but there's differing strengths of concrete too), so even half an inch, properly supported could hold a lot. And wall of stone must, by rules, be properly supported when cast (and the stone type isn't listed really other than maybe blending with surrounding stone, so it probably isn't concrete.)

I'd say that trying to make a floor that crumbles easily isn't likely with just a casting of the spell, though making a wall or floor that can be broken through more easily is. If that makes sense.