Rapid Grappler and Blood Drain

[TiaxTheMighty]

So Blood drain states that "...if the vampire establishes or maintains a pin, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage."

With Rapid Grappler, I believe you can get up to 3 grapple checks per round. Does this mean that a vampire with said feat could drain blood 3 times a round?
Mechanically it seems right
However, my Cheese meter is off the charts on this one.

What do you all think, raw, and interpretation wise?

[Avianfoo]

You can only establish or maintain a grapple (or pin) once a round. Rapid Grappler feat allows you another grapple check after the maintain has been successful.

However: If you allow a successful grapple attempt (while pinning) to drain more blood... Then you could potentially get 3 sucks a round.

But as written it is only once a round.

[TiaxTheMighty]

That's not quite how I read it. It seems to me that maintaining a grapple (standard action) allows you to harm, pin, move etc... Greater Grapple makes this a move action thus allowing for more grapple checks. All of those actions are under the "maintain grapple" section right? Normally, I'd expect the Blood Drain ability to specify "once a round" but it doesn't.

[DM_Blake]

Round 1, Grapple is a standard action. Only one attempt, only one Blood Drain.

Round 2, Maintain Grapple is a move action and you can Pin. This allows a Swift Action to make a Grapple Maneuver Check so you could Pin again. You still have a Standard action so you could make one more Grapple Maneuver Check and Pin a third time.

However, the standard definition of Blood Drain in the Bestiary Appendix says:

Blood Drain (Ex)

The creature drains blood at the end of its turn if it grapples a foe, inflicting Constitution damage.

Format: blood drain (1d2 Constitution); Location: Special Attacks.

[TiaxTheMighty]

I did note that and I do see your point. However that Appendix extry also does not specify that you have to pin the creature to use Blood Drain. The vampire entry says you have to pin. The vampire's blood drain also does not specify that it happens at the end of the round. The only thing that's mentioned as happening once a round is the temp hp gain.

I will also point out that the Blood Drain of the Vampire is SU while the appendix entry is EX. Antimagic Field - the new Vampire Repellant.

[TiaxTheMighty]

bump

[DM_Blake]

Nevertheless, the Specific rule overrides the General rule, but it doesn't override any general stuff that is NOT part of the specific rule.

For example, where I live, we have a speed limit and the general rule is that it's illegal for anyone to drive faster than the speed limit. However, a specific rule for emergency vehicles like ambulances allows them to drive faster than the speed limit. That specific rule does NOT include any wording that makes it legal for ME to drive faster than the speed limit.

See where I'm going with that analogy?

The vampire's Blood Drain is a specific blood drain that MUST follow the general rules for Blood Drain EXCEPT those parts of the rule that the vampire's ability explicitly changes. The vampire's Blood Drain explicitly requires a Pin, and it explicitly makes it a supernatural ability. That's it. It doesn't explicitly allow multiple uses each round nor does it explicitly say it happens every time the vampire pins an opponent. It has no explicit override for the frequency of Blood Drain use, which means the general rule, once at the end of the round, is still in force.

[TiaxTheMighty]

Ok that makes sense. Thanks

[Keter]

It does seem to override the general rule on the trigger for it's blood drain to me with the wording "if the vampire establishes or maintains a pin". This would seem to me to imply that the ability triggers at that point. Even if one argues that this wording does not supersede the normal blood drain trigger, blood drain does not specify that it can only be triggered once in a given round.

The wording of the core ability is somewhat ambiguous as to the original trigger, as it does not use the pathfinder terminology of "maintain a grapple", "succeed at a grapple combat maneuver check", etc, but I think we all take it to mean if you do one of those things. The wording of the vampire's ability indicates a trigger and no restriction on activations/turn, and neither does the core mechanic.

Finally, this seems in keeping with the logic and flavor of the Vampire's ability mechanic as well. The text seems to indicate that unlike normal creatures with blood drain the vampire needs the time and effort it takes to pin to sink it's fangs in and feed. If the vampire is such a skilled/overpowering/preturnaturally quick predator that it is capable of doing so more rapidly and often, it follows to me that it could more easily sate itself to it's heart's desire.