| Feragore |
I'm running a pre-gen campaign where the party starts with literally no equipment. This also includes the lack of the Wizard's spellbook.
What's troubling me is the rules surrounding Wizards attempting to use someone else's spellbook. Here's the rules, with emphasis.
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty.
Arcane Magical Writings
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.
Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. He must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times he has prepared it before. If the check fails, he cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. However, as explained above, he does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.
Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, he can record it into his spellbook.Time: The process takes 1 hour per spell level. Cantrips (0 levels spells) take 30 minutes to record.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has 100 pages.
Materials and Costs: The cost for writing a new spell into a spellbook depends on the level of the spell, as noted on Table: Spell Level and Writing Costs. Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for spells he gains for free at each new level.
Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
So how does this work? Can the wizard even prepare a spell in the first place from a different book if he had no spellbook to begin with? You're only allowed to prepare spells if they were in your book, but that can't work when your old book is in a fire and your new book either doesn't exist or is completely blank, fresh from the bookstore.
Let's assume this 'you can't prepare a spell not in your book ever' rule doesn't exist because it makes no sense, if they have to make checks to prepare every single spell, the only way to get around that is by making a brand new book from scratch but there's so many limitations to that it's not easy at all.
To start with, there's the contradiction with the first quote from the Wizard Spellbook class feature vs Replacing Spells: Do you just spend the hour to study the spell or do you have to prepare it? Both use the same check, but one's an hour and the other's a full 8, complete with spell slot limitations.
If it's the latter, it seems to me the Wizard can only copy as many spells per day as he can prepare, and each day he commits to scribing a new book, he's utterly defenceless as each spell slot is spent once scribed. Not really ideal. And every time he fails to prepare a spell with the non-trivial Spellcraft check, that's another day lost.
Duplicating probably wouldn't work either; if you're copying a book word-for-word, then the new book is literally a copy of the previous one and thus you'd still have to make checks. Also, what if you fail Spellcraft when duplicating? Does the copied book become useless? Read Magic only lasts 10 min/level. If a level 1 tries to copy someone else's book with 11+ spells, does it just fail? Do they roll Spellcraft on each page after? What if the book contains spells they can't learn?
And there's also the possibility of reading into the word 'borrowed' too much - say if you bought the book instead can you not prepare any spells from it? What if you just found it? Stole it? Looted it from his corpse? Does the book read your mind and lock itself when you give up the intention to return it?
As I don't know just how much free time the party has to wait for the Wizard to write a new spell book just so it can be designated as theirs, I'm considering houseruling it so we avoid this mess just to get the Wizard to parity with the simpler classes that just need their starting armor and weapons back but that seems like a kludge against some clear RAW and RAI against a Wizard just freely using a different book.
I've found a 3.5 rule on mastering a spellbook, but that probably takes even more time than scribing their own and with a rather stupid DC to be throwing at a level 1 character.
Most rules are fairly clear at least after reading over discussions on these boards but there's just too many contradictions and ambiguity to work with and surprisingly these rules don't come up often to have a general consensus laid out already.
Any advice on this?
| DeltaOneG |
What level is said Wizard? The number of spells involved might make this rather tedious, but that's what casters have to deal with.
If they're wealthy enough I'd recommend a ring of sustenance so that they can use the night hours more easily. Regardless a few days of fatigue and no new spells (can't find the rules for fatigue due to not getting sleep at night) are probably worth it for the wizard to stay up copying spells.
All that said, he'll probably want to copy the spells from the book that is not his into one that is.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.
In the meantime he should still declare what spells were in his original spellbook, per usual wizard rules, before he lost it/it was destroyed, in order for preparing spells from the "not his" spellbook.
At the end of each day he can copy down any spells he didn't cast (or really he can at any time of day but at the end of the day is probably best) into his spellbook.
Yes, all this will be a pain*, but not for too long.
So, to (hopefully) clarify more directly:
He can only prepare a spell from the "not his" spellbook if he once upon a time had a spellbook with that spell in it. The "his" spellbook does not need to still be intact or in his possession to do so.
He can copy spells prepared in such a way into a new "his" spellbook. (I haven't taken the time to figure out but I think this would be faster than simply adding them to his spellbook.) If you like, you could allow him to replace the spell-slot used for this. RAW it doesn't seem clear that, once erased from his mind, it qualifies for the recent casting limitation.
For the spells in the "not his" spellbook you would follow the rules for adding spells that I quoted above in the spoiler.
Also remember that a wizard can always prepare "Read Magic" from memory.
Hope that helps.
*unless you wave your magic GM wand at any part to make life easier. Some easy ways would be to temporarily give him a ring of sustenance, free spell-writing ink, temporary or one-time-use pearls of power, etc etc.
| Feragore |
Yeah, I forgot to mention that the Wizard is level 1. Specifically the start of the Way of the Wicked campaign. At this point, they're lucky to have the gold to scribe the level one spells, let alone magic items to make scribing easier.
As for lack of sleep, there's no actual rules on it. Reasonable house rules I've found are fatigue after a missed night or Con checks each missed hour.
The main problem is that time stipulation; 8 hours for each spell with a very real probablility of failure seems a little extreme. Even if it's just one hour, there's still a good few days of scribing in what appears to be a rather rushed start.
The point about 'knowing' spells that they used to have so they can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook, is that completely seperate from the spellbook then? Because I assumed they either didn't know anything besides what their spellbook had or had a general knowledge from Spellcraft/Arcana such as identifying spells being cast. The rules were pretty much 'known/learned = spellbook' except for this one specific case.
DesolateHarmony
|
A wizard starts with all the cantrips and 2 first-level spells in his spellbook. So, in this case, he's had his spellbook taken, and picked up another. So he needs to decide which 2 spells he had had in his own book. Those he can prepare. He needs to get a new, blank spellbook to call his own, and start writing spells into that one using the rules as cited above.
| Dr Grecko |
A wizard starts with all the cantrips and 2 first-level spells in his spellbook.
It's actually a little nicer than that:
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook.
| DeltaOneG |
If he has +2 or greater modifier for int and 1 rank in spellcraft, he really doesn't even need to copy them into his own spellbook as he can prepare them just as well from the borrowed book by taking 10 on the spellcraft check (and a one-time required deciphering with the spell "read magic"). The situations when he couldn't take 10 are the same that would prevent preparing spells anyway.
If he keeps up with spellcraft it quickly become a non-issue as his skill will outpace his ability to cast spell levels.
He can then use empty space in the borrowed spellbook as his own and you can just forget all the problems.
If he really does want to copy them over:
The first day he should prepare "read magic" from memory and decipher the entire spellbook.
Once deciphered he can prepare any cantrip provided he has at least a +1 int modifider and a rank in spellcraft (taking 10 on the spellcraft check gets you 15 or better). Because a wizard starts knowing (having in his spellbook) all cantrips, that isn't an issue. He can then copy these cantrips into his own spellbook taking 30 mins per spell.
In character creation he should have chosen spells he started with in his spellbook. If he has a +2 or better int modifier he can prepare these from the "not his" spellbook without any issue by taking 10 on the check. He can then copy these spells into his own spellbook taking 1 hour per spell.
For any spells he didn't have in his original spellbook he can get them into his new spellbook by studying them for an hour, succeeding on the same spellcraft check as to prepare them from a borrowed spellbook and then take an additional hour to write them down.
| DM_Blake |
Has the campaign already started, or are you just planning ahead to a campaign you're about to start? If it's not too late, you can drop a few easy-access scrolls or even a blank spellbook on the wizard even within the first hour of play:
Their visitor brings them a veil of useful items and there is a sidebar suggesting adding an item or two that can help out wizards and alchemists. That veil could have a blank spellbook and/or a scroll (one scroll could have several level 1 spells on it).
There is also the spellbook placed in the jail just for this reason.
So the PCs escape, gaining a few bits of armor and weapons and maybe a "borrowed" spellbook for the wizard to replace his. If I recall, they almost immediately meet a new "friend" in a safe place, no reason they can't hang out there for a few days for some reason, like their "friend" is waiting for someone else to arrive, or whatever. During that time, the wizard creates his own spellbook - their "friend" might even have a blank one lying around if they missed the chance earlier.
| Feragore |
Has the campaign already started, or are you just planning ahead to a campaign you're about to start? If it's not too late, you can drop a few easy-access scrolls or even a blank spellbook on the wizard even within the first hour of play:
** spoiler omitted **
So the PCs escape, gaining a few bits of armor and weapons and maybe a "borrowed" spellbook for the wizard to replace his. If I recall, they almost immediately meet a new "friend" in a safe place, no reason they can't hang out there for a few days for some reason, like their "friend" is waiting for someone else to arrive, or whatever. During that time, the wizard creates his own spellbook - their "friend" might even have a blank one lying around if they missed the chance earlier.
Yeah, I went ahead and bought the first book to know more about the setting and what happens later. Suffice to say, there's more than enough opportunities especially after the rules got cleared up.
Good advice on the scrolls as well as a side point as we have an alchemist as well and their 'prepared spell' equivalent is an item so they'd not likely get to keep them. An 'alchemical script' for them to prepare extracts from as a 1-time deal would work pretty well until they can get a formula book at roughly the same point in time.
Thanks for the help guys.