Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would be cool if there were Account-based "skills" that we could spend Character XP on.
These shouldn't include anything that would make our Characters more effective, but rather should be limited to things which really make sense at the Account level.
Unlocking special Races and Classes comes to mind. As does Shared Storage, but that's not really applicable to PFO. I'm sure there are other things people could come up with.
Any other suggestions?
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These are likely to be what is sold in the cash shop I would have thought
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope that all classes (archetypes/roles depending on exactly which terminology you want to use for PFO's classless system) are available to all characters regardless of account type. Restricting someone from spending XP on a certain archetype until they've spent some XP from that account can lead to issues:
Let's say a new archetype comes out (magus for sake of argument) and I can only take skills in that archetype if I've unlocked it on my account by spending character xp on it. Someone else may want to do the same, but I have the advantage of Destiny's Twin. I spend the xp on one character to unlock the magus for both characters and then spend the xp on the other character on magus skills now that magus is unlocked for them. That other player only has one character gaining xp so they have to spend xp on that character to unlock the magus and then spend more xp from the same character to gain magus skills. So in effect I've used one character's xp to get skills for the other (or equivalently gotten magus skills cheaper on that second character), allowing me to effective 'level up' that second character faster than I should have.
The above also applies to people who pay to have two characters gaining xp on the same account.
Having to spend the xp from both characters prevents this little exploit. In that case, it's not really account wide and is just another archetype like any other.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nightdrifter, I understand your concern. However, I think that concern would also apply if the special Race and Class... err, Role unlocks were sold in the Cash Shop, and like ZenPagan I kind of expected they would be.
And yes, it occurred to me that someone paying for 8 Characters simultaneously training on a single Account would be able to unlock these things more quickly. But in my mind, there's nothing wrong with that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to agree with the "this should be a microtransaction" crowd. I mean in the skills category it also is a microtransaction (skill training time is money), but in the form of preventing you from training your skills, is just bad form. Throws an unfair bias towards people who get multiple characters, (IE draining an alt instead of your main characters training etc... or even buying and paying to train a throwaway character just to train account skills").
Admitted I suppose that is a reasonable alternative for say F2P players that are buying skill training time with in game coin, but if GW wants that they can accomplish that by making sellable items for them anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Races from cash shop? I'd be okay with that so long as they are largely a novelty and no better than any other race normally available.
Anything like a class/archetype/role which you have to purchase separately through a microtransaction also leads to problems IMO. Then there are inevitably going to be builds that use these new skills from that class/archetype/role. At that point you get issues with 'pay to win'. Or at least complaints of 'pay to win'. So I'm against the idea of any sort of class (or anything which can affect a character's build) requiring an independent purchase.
Novelty items (appearance items, different races which are mechanically equivalent to current races, housing items, different mounts and the like) I'd be perfectly okay with through microtransactions as those don't unbalance anything. I just don't want to have the possibility of anything which affects characters mechanically being purchasable through a microtransaction for the above reasons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, you make some really good points, and I'll admit this was a spur-of-the-moment thing and I didn't think about it very long before I started this thread.
Part of it is my bias about rewarding players for using a single account, and spending some of your earned XP to improve the account creates a very strong (IMO) incentive for that.
Anyway, thanks everyone for the feedback, even if it wasn't very positive :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO all races should be available to all players, no Cash-shop buying for races.
Unless it was an account-wide unlock. Then I would be fine with it being Unlockable based on say Total XP accured or some other method, or if you want instant gratifaction a cash shop option.
A cash shop item I would like to see however a race-change elixir or something. Kill you and resurrect you as a different race or whatever fluff you want. As I will likely play a human at the start but years down the road if they have fetchling or something I would likely be inclined to want to change and I would have no issue paying for that change.
As far as other account based unlocks go I am not sure. I like the idea certainly, but like you said it shouldn't be anything major or game effecting. More novel so that brings up a problem of, aside from races what would be other valuable unlocks.
Perhaps things that effect your early game experience. After you reach a certain level of exp, rather then starting a new character as a peasant you could start off as a noble with some noble clothing and a larger sum of gold, which would help in early levels but this bonus gold should be a pittance compared to what adventures would have beyond early game. (similar to rich parents feat)
Or maybe account based unlocks could affect knowledge skills.
I kinda like this actually knowledge could be account based skills, might be neat.
While I am not opposed to the idea, I find it very difficult to make it viable, but that doesn't mean someone else doesn't have an amazing concept.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi, you make some really good points, and I'll admit this was a spur-of-the-moment thing and I didn't think about it very long before I started this thread.
Part of it is my bias about rewarding players for using a single account, and spending some of your earned XP to improve the account creates a very strong (IMO) incentive for that.
Anyway, thanks everyone for the feedback, even if it wasn't very positive :)
I think I can think of some means to do that that don't punish or harm the individual training.
first the obvious, microtransactions for race etc. being account wide. That in and of itself makes multiple accounts notably more expensive if they want it, but of course also at the drawback of... well if someone wants a drow and say a goblin, unless the races were bundled which would generate equal outrage, it wouldn't be much different on one or 2 accounts.
Second option, as veror mentioned a total XP unlocks could work, doesn't burn any training time, people with multiple characters would gain it twice as fast, but single character players wouldn't have to slow down progression on their only character to get it, which is a big plus. Could do multiple options, DDO allowed you to unlock drow in game, but the option to bypass and buy them right out on day 1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I definitely like the idea of Total XP Earned on an Account unlocking special perks. I'm not sure Ryan feels the same way, though. It may actually be in his best interests not to create too strong an incentive to use a single account in order to ensure that the truly devious players don't feel shafted when they make an alt account to hide from the guild they're trying to destroy from the inside...
I think another thing I was thinking of was the old Alternate Advancement system in EverQuest, where after 50 you could devote some percentage of your earned XP towards buying perks for your Character. It seemed like it would be cool to spend that XP on perks for your Account, too.
After you reach a certain level of exp, rather then starting a new character as a peasant you could start off as a noble with some noble clothing and a larger sum of gold, which would help in early levels but this bonus gold should be a pittance compared to what adventures would have beyond early game. (similar to rich parents feat)
I really like this idea, but there ought to be perks that will benefit the Player with a single Character, as well. Not perks that benefit the Character, but the Player...
Being a bit of an altaholic in most games, it's easy for me to be excited by perks that make starting a new character more interesting, but I think there are a lot of folks for whom such perks would be utterly wasted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi Account unlocks based on total XP would be gained twice as fast by Destiny's Twin Characters. As that allows you to have to PCs training at once, for all other Characters they would gain that XP at a fixed rate as they can only have one character gaining XP at a time. (unless they change their mind)
They can either leave us with that advantage or remedy it by not counting the the "Extra" XP gained from DT as a result of doubling up on training.
Personally I think it should be a added benefit of DT but then again I am biased.
Originally I hated DDOs micro-transactions because you had to BUY EVERYTHING. But really its not so bad because you can earn the cash-shop currency via grinding Influence points, and some micro-transactions can be unlocked by just reaching a influence point threshold with no additional cost to the player. Sadly these unlocks where server based and not account wide, the Cash unlocks were account wide.
But I could see this game having similar cash-shop structure as DDO minus the Class unlocks as I don't think they should restrict the skills your character can acquire especially in the way they are designing a classless game.
@Nihimon I like your statement "perks that benefit the Player" not an exact quote but its what struck a code with me. I really like the idea that IF these total XP account progression account unlocks are in the game, the perks should benefit the player. Not bonuses or boons to the Character, but for the Player playing the game.
How to pull that off, I really don't know. The alternate starting experience as I mentioned sort of blurs the lines, it does benefit the character but to offer the player a boon of a altered early game.
But there should be player boons for players that only play one character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... they can only have one character gaining XP at a time.
It's already been officially announced that you'll be able to train multiple characters simultaneously.
subscription:
train skills on more then 1 character simultaneouslyInaccurate. As I have said before, we're charging you to train skills. Subscribers don't have to micro-manage their skill training payments, but a subscription still gets you just one character-month of training. You could pay for two subscriptions on one account and double that and train two characters in parallel, or you could use MTX to give some training to a second character in parallel.
Of course the same logic applies for 3, 4, etc. characters.
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Onishi Account unlocks based on total XP would be gained twice as fast by Destiny's Twin Characters. As that allows you to have to PCs training at once, for all other Characters they would gain that XP at a fixed rate as they can only have one character gaining XP at a time. (unless they change their mind)
GW's plan is that you can gain XP on multiple characters at a time, you just have to pay for that privilege. IE you will either have to buy training time, or possibly a premium subscription plan will be an option.
but yeah provided that these are not power effecting perks I see no reason people paying more, couldn't get cosmetic perks faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
@Onishi
Thank you for correcting me on that, seems I was a bit beyond the curb on that issue.
That seems like a unique way of doing character training and would be a good way to empower people who want to use the same account for multiple subscriptions.
Yea Onishi so long as they are cosmetic, and or non game/character effecting perks then its perfectly fine to let people who pay multiple subscriptions gain them faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That seems like a unique way of doing character training and would be a good way to empower people who want to use the same account for multiple subscriptions.
I was absolutely over the moon happy when Ryan announced that we'll even be able to have more than one character from the same account logged in at the same time.
Functionally, it's identical to having a bunch of single-character accounts all tied together. I'm very, very happy with that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was absolutely over the moon happy when Ryan announced that we'll even be able to have more than one character from the same account logged in at the same time.
Whoa, really? I thought he said the opposite at some point. I haven't seen many dev posts lately, though. Feedly screwed up my account and lost all the feed links and configuration I had done, so I deleted the apps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, you can have other characters on that account. All of them training with a an extra cost and all of them logged in.I wanted a companion character that I could let a friend play on occasionally. I might have time for two characters, but likely not a third.
It makes sense that if you can play both characters simultaneously you need to pay for both.
Your free Destiny Twin will be ideal for stuff like:
- a second craft/trading toon that you can invest years of training time into optimizing his craft/trade skills without compromising your fighting skills on your main. This twin would be a log in once a day money earner to pay for your mains expensive PvP exploits (despite delusions otherwise people do not make money out of PvP characters they are a resource sink).
- a second character for the kids/gf/bf to fool around with while your at work or not around.
- a long term character whose skillsets take a while to become optimal and who is not really all that playable early on (arcane toons tend to be like this)
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, you can have other characters on that account. All of them training with a an extra cost and all of them logged in.I wanted a companion character that I could let a friend play on occasionally. I might have time for two characters, but likely not a third.1. It makes sense that if you can play both characters simultaneously you need to pay for both.
Your free Destiny Twin will be ideal for stuff like:
2. - a second craft/trading toon that you can invest years of training time into optimizing his craft/trade skills without compromising your fighting skills on your main. This twin would be a log in once a day money earner to pay for your mains expensive PvP exploits (despite delusions otherwise people do not make money out of PvP characters they are a resource sink).
3. - a second character for the kids/gf/bf to fool around with while your at work or not around.
4. - a long term character whose skillsets take a while to become optimal and who is not really all that playable early on (arcane toons tend to be like this)
3 - That's closest to what I was thinking of, only I would want it available while I'm on as well. That's the point of a character that is available for occasional play with a friend.
1 - A separate account would be better.2 - I'm not really interested in PvP combat in the first place. I'm sure it will happen, but I don't care to seek it out.
During the pledge drive, I would have considered a second, separate account with the same pledge date and rewards as the one I have, but that wasn't available as an add-on to other pledge types. It was only available as specialized 'buddy' and 'guild' pledges, which were themselves lacking other options I wanted. When Nihimon said what he did, I was excited at the possibility of another way to make something similar work, if two characters from the same account could be on, but apparently it won't work as I'd hoped. Oh well, moving on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1 - A separate account would be better.
GW seem to be trying not to make you worry about having multiple accounts. Ryan's said:
"You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account. So you can run the client twice, or run the client on two computers logged into the same account. (This is commonly called "multiboxing")."
Hard to imagine they'd care if it were one human or two running those characters; they're getting paid for two, and they'll let you worry about account security.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1 - A separate account would be better.GW seem to be trying not to make you worry about having multiple accounts. Ryan's said:
"You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account. So you can run the client twice, or run the client on two computers logged into the same account. (This is commonly called "multiboxing")."
Hard to imagine they'd care if it were one human or two running those characters; they're getting paid for two, and they'll let you worry about account security.
The problem becomes theirs when a person you let use your account just ups and steals it, then sells it for real money on ebay.
I guarantee the EULA will have a section about account sharing and that it is not allowed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hard to imagine they'd care if it were one human or two running those characters; they're getting paid for two, and they'll let you worry about account security.
The problem becomes theirs when a person you let use your account just ups and steals it, then sells it for real money on ebay.
I guarantee the EULA will have a section about account sharing and that it is not allowed.
I believe that's what jaz was saying on the "they'll let you worry about your own account security".
As far as whether the EULA will have a policy forbidding account sharing, I don't know, GW seems uninterested in laying down rules that are inevitably going to be broken and 100% imposible to detect in any way (IE multiboxing, account sharing etc..." but I'd say it's a 50/50 chance if they will throw in a clause like that, and even then it's a 50/50 shot as to whether they will do it as a cover their ass (IE the scenerio you listed, they can say you broke the EULA), or 2, they actually intend to enforce it and require families etc... to have an account for each member. Account sharing is really only enforcable in the event that someone outright admits it over in game communication or in game forums.
I would say there is an extreme probability that the EULA will have a policy saying in slightly more legally binding terms "If you give your password to someone, you are giving them consent to do whatever the heck they want with the account, don't expect us to fix your mistake"
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Goblin Squad Member
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1 - A separate account would be better.GW seem to be trying not to make you worry about having multiple accounts.
What they're trying doesn't matter, the ability to multi-box on a single account is irrelevant if the cost of two characters is the same whether they're on the same account or separate ones.
Separate accounts is still better, since it's more secure and it's easier to sell characters off individually. If they want people to stick to one account for multiple characters, there would need to be some sort of discount. Destiny's Twin was a 100% discount on a second character, but people are saying twinned characters are a special case, blocked from being logged in at the same time.I think you could have added a second $35 account to your pledge. Probably too late now, but maybe if you ask them nicely they may let you
That would have started at the final month of EE, not at the beginning. 'Crowdforger Buddy' gave a second account that started at the same month of EE, got a Destiny's Twin, all the same Daily Deals, etc. There wasn't a way for higher pledges like the Brewmaster (or whatever) to add a CF Buddy account, or for those at Buddy to add a third, or those at Guild to add a 7th, etc. People who went through the trouble to set up extra Kickstarter accounts could have made multiple pledges as a suboptimal work-around, but it's likely by the time they realized they may want to, they'd have lost a lot of daily items, fallen out of first-month EE, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I remember correctly you could have added those just fine. Just add them. Maybe Im wrong, I just did what I planned to do but added in a twice marked.
I think once it hit this site, you could have made a guild level pledge and been in on the second month of EE. There were not enough to throw you into the third month, at least the numbers on the kickstarter page showed that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I remember correctly you could have added those just fine. Just add them. Maybe Im wrong, I just did what I planned to do but added in a twice marked.
I think once it hit this site, you could have made a guild level pledge and been in on the second month of EE. There were not enough to throw you into the third month, at least the numbers on the kickstarter page showed that.
No, the 35$ add-on accounts were not Crowdforger accounts, they were the same as the 35$ ones you can see on the Kickstarter page. They did get Twins, but not EE. Anyway, it's over now. If it becomes possible to add a buddy account that shares the timestamp and all rewards of an existing Crowdforger+ pledge, then that would be good. Besides the ability for established members to pick up additional accounts on par with the ones they have, look around on this forum and you'll see posters who apparently missed the KS (they don't have goblin tags). They might be able to find established members willing to help them into the goblin squad.