Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure if it's been addressed how the player market will work in PFO. I personally would like to see localized Markets, where what you are selling is only available where you're selling it.
I know games like WoW and many other MMO's have Market places that are availble where ever you are, or you can just do a mass search for what you need.
I really liked the idea in the original Everquest of the Bazaar. Or having playing housing or player owned shops like in Star Wars Galaxies before they changed it to a level system.
If you have a large MMO world, without easy mass transit and add localized markets, it changes how the economy works. Things that may be quite common in one area, are not so common in a different area of the game. This leads to significantly different types of crafting and what's being sold.
People will go out of their way to travel to specific settlements because they sell quality goods. Perhaps a black market is run out of a local Thieves guild a player made, or the Wizards tower sells quality magical items and spells.
Maybe your settlement because of this has a robust Bazaar, so not only are people from your settlement the only ones selling out of thier stores, but other players travel there to have their wares sold because of the high player traffic.
Even in Eve there were large Market hubs. However since it was a scifi mmo, it made sense to have a Market search from systems away. In a setting without such tech available I don't think the global or area search feature should be available. I realize that people are spoiled by conveniences like that and instant travel, but having to actually work for something and go out of your way to find it, as frustrating as it may be to do makes finally getting it worth so much more.
Some players may make their money by buying and selling commodities. You purchase in one area something that is more readily available, and take it to a place where it is not so readily available, and sell it for a marked up price. The consumer can either pay your marked up price, or get up off there ass and trek across the game world hoping to find what they're looking for at a cheaper price over there. That's how economies work in real life, and I think it will add a depth to the economy in game as well if done that way, especially since much the game will revolve around the player economy.
They have said that the markets will be local, Ryan has also said that you would be able to see markets from a distance as if the game did not allow it you would just find people using alts or third party websites anyway. Selling and buying however sound like they will need to be done locally.
The large market hubs in Eve were not designed that way it is just merely where everyone goes to buy and sell. The only thing intriniscally different about Jita is its location
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I do see your point about people would just make websites with lists of what was being sold where if the game didn't put it in. So being able to see it from a distance, or having something pop up saying that x is being sold in this settlement at this stall or shop location, and giving you a waypoint isn't so bad.
I hadn't realized that they had posted something official on this. I approve.
This all would be completely defeated though if people could insta transit/teleport wherever they wanted in the game world. It would just make localized markets an irritation with the ability to move around that quickly. So I really hope they don't add instant travel and wreck this system.
Having to caravan shipments across the world could be interesting, hiring players and/or npc's to guard your caravan from other players and/or npcs as they travel would be something that would happen.
This also opens up the career of being a hiway robber and bandit, which I've heard people express interest in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is where I think we are in terms of a design:
Each Settlement will have a central market. In order to place a buy or sell order on that market you will have to physically visit that market. Information about the buy & sell orders on the market will be visible to you depending on the state of your character's abilities. Everyone will be able to go to a Settlement and see it's market orders, but some characters may be able to get that information at a distance.
When you place a sell order you'll put the inventory into escrow at the Settlement where you're placing the order. When you place a buy order you'll place the price into escrow and when the order matches, your inventory will be delivered to the Settlement where the sell order was posted. You'll have to transport the material from there to wherever else you need it if you wish to move it elsewhere.
Realistically there will be players who set up alts in every Settlement and generate near-real time information on every market, then centralize that information in tools they either keep proprietary or make available to the whole community. There's virtually no way to stop that from happening, so we'll just accept it and move on.
You will be able to control the price you offer to buy or sell an item at. So you will be able to compete with other market participants on price and quantity. When a sell order and a buy order match, they'll be immediately filled. Purchasing something by browsing the market, seeing an item at a price you want to pay, and buying it on the spot will be supported as well (you'll likely always pay the lowest offered price, to avoid scams and accidents).
We may or may not make visible the information about who is doing the buying and the selling. We will make visible price data for every item type so you can see the market price history and volume data.
This is all essentially identical to the EVE system.
Before we can talk about independent shops or bazaars we need to get at least this level of functionality implemented first, so until all of that content is deployed, we won't be Crowdforging on the question of what else to do with markets.
This prompted me to add a new list of Reference Posts to Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea that different locations have different goods for sale. Obviously the basics will be duplicated, but maybe we could have different styles or fashions so that an Alphacity cloak is somehow different to a Betacity cloak, and you will need to travel to Alphacity to get one. Gammcity sells eastern-style weapons and armour, but Deltacity is on the coast and sells pirate-appropriate gear.
It would mean some internal settlement control and agreement, the dumping of the concept that each weapon is different enough from another to make a mechanical difference (why use a shortsword when the rapier is superior mechanically?)*, plus maybe the ability to default to a particular cosmetic skin, but would considerably add to the feeling of each settlement's market being different.
*In this I prefer the WHFRP system that had all one-handed swords, maces and axes classed as 'one-handed weapon', regardless of whether they were longswords, sabres, tulwars or whatever. I would keep the difference for piercing/slashing/blunt because those are concepts inherent to monster mechanics, and the weapon tags that allow trips, disarms or whatever, but I like the idea that I can choose a one-handed weapons that suits my character concept without having to compromise mechanically. A 'one-handed sword' can therefore be an arming sword, scimitar or cutlass as appropriate to your concept.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm talking about such things as falchions being classed as two-handed, scimitars being less effective in normal circumstances than longswords (d6 instead of d8), and shortswords being inferior to the rapier. In the PnP game you either have to decide that the name Paizo give the weapon is irrelevant and so pick a weapon whose stat-line you like, but call it a falchion or whatever, or you have to take a weapon that has an inferior stat-line because you want (for example) a character with a scimitar because it suits your concept.
Hopefully, in the online game there will be less emphasis on the weapon stat-line, and more on the character who wields it (as can happen when you get a handful of Feats under your belt). I want to be able to choose a weapon because it suits my concept, without having to worry that d6 is going to hamper me in melee as compared with d8 doing a third more maximum damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your concept is maximum damage, then it is not scimitar. What you are talking about gets into min/maxing and should have very little impact on base game mechanics, excepting where balance is concerned.
What I do see GW doing is potentially making lighter, less damaging weapons desirable in their own right based on modifiers available to that weapon. As opposed to arbitrary "you must be wielding this, to do this", it seems like we are more likely to see "in order to do this, you must be wielding a weapon with this modifier" for which I hope the differences are readily apparent. As with all things, we shall see.
I have always felt like I should be able to backstab someone effectively with a greatsword. I doubt this is going to be fulfilled any time soon though. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You should absolutely be able to backstab with a greatsword, assuming you were able to sneak up unawares.
The greatsword is another weapon very much misunderstood by RPG designers. There is an automatic assumption that it is a great clumsy thing swung like a huge axe, whereas its use could be almost spear-like in attack. Renaissance prints of greatsword technique show that the weapon was far more versatile than it is given credit for, and contemporary research has shown that it can be used in a fast and flowing melee, almost like a pollaxe.
Swords in general are misunderstood (ironically their power being over estimated), not just in RPGs but also generally (largely thanks to Hollywood and the Victorians), but the poor greatsword has never been able to shine as it should.
One problem with RPGs is the mixture of historical periods. A weapon that shone in one period is not facing the same situations in another. A weapon that can beat down an enemy shield wall is clumsy against an unarmed fencer, but light and mobile rapier will struggle against good plate armour and/or shields. A polearm with hooks to drag armoured opponents from their horses and a blade to strike beyond the front rank of a formation, has less use in the swirling melee of individual and mobile warriors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your concept is maximum damage, then it is not scimitar. What you are talking about gets into min/maxing and should have very little impact on base game mechanics, excepting where balance is concerned.
Combat plays such a huge part in most RPGs that you cannot ignore the better weapon. Sure, if you want a build that primarily uses disarms and trips, then damage is a secondary consideration. More commonly, however, you are going to be hammering away in the traditional manner.
I accept that min/max plays its part, but only in the same way as a spellcaster chooses the most effective spells, or a rogue adopts the most effective tactic. Choosing d8 over d6, when nothing else really fundamentally changes, is common sense. A third more damage is an immense amount, certainly at lower levels. If a mage was asked to choose between the 8d6 fireball and the 6d6 one that had a cosmetic side-effect appropriate to his concept, as a party member I would be asking serious questions if he chose the weak one that smelt of petunias.
As a player I would probably applaud his commitment to role-play, whilst simultaneously throwing dice at his lack of common sense.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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One problem with RPGs is the mixture of historical periods. A weapon that shone in one period is not facing the same situations in another. A weapon that can beat down an enemy shield wall is clumsy against an unarmed fencer, but light and mobile rapier will struggle against good plate armour and/or shields. A polearm with hooks to drag armoured opponents from their horses and a blade to strike beyond the front rank of a formation, has less use in the swirling melee of individual and mobile warriors.
Oh, hey! You do understand situational advantages for different weapons.
Now consider what the implications are if there is a common situation for each weapon where it is most effective: Slitting someone's throat from behind with a greatsword, for example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For throat slitting I would definitely go for a knife. Not a dagger mind, a knife. There is a difference. I might use a small herb sickle if I was a bit religious-kinky (a druidical assassin - now there's a thought), but at the size we are talking it would probably be classed as a knife anyhow.
However, backstabbing, certainly within the context of RPGs, is not the same as throat-slitting. A greatsword is just as capable of stabbing some unaware victim in the kidneys as a dagger, and in a melee situation more useful afterwards.
Personally, my weapon of choice for the backstab (or any other close-in fight) would be a shortsword*, but they are Martial Weapons in Pathfinder and thus rogues can't play with them.
Open individual melee I would choose a pollaxe or greatsword with shortsword backup. Facing the possibility of missile weapons I'd use a shield plus either warhammer (against heavy armour) or arming sword (against light/no armour). In massed ranks it has to be the spear and shield, with one-handed axe and shortsword.
Sadly, carrying all those weapons about means I'd need a squire or other weapon-carrier.
In any case, I wouldn't gain particular benefits in most RPGs so I'd choose a single weapon to specialise in. In D&D/Pathfinder it would be a brutal one like Dwarven Waraxe or Bastard Sword, in Runequest 2nd it would be a two-handed long spear backed up by a shortsword. In GURPS I'd go for a polearm with shortsword.
*I say 'shortsword' to refer to a sword around two feet long with both point and edge. Historically it could also be known as a 'long knife', but essentially just think of blades built on the gladius model. Defining swords is a real mess of convention, historical usage and misinterpretation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mass transportation has been heavily implied to be a major gameplay element, but hasn't had an in-depth announcement to quote from.
This makes me sad, I know the current generation is all about convenience, and wants everything now. They don't want to have to trudge across a virtual continent to get where they're going. But I find that adds more depth to the game, and it makes you appreciate things more when you get them.
If you had to go on some great adventure to get where you were going, you could tell a story to your friends about it.
And it helps the economy as well, because the players who are willing to transport goods from one end of a game world where they are common, to another end of the game world create more game play elements.
They can make more money off of selling their wares where they are rare. Players can find jobs as caravan guards. Other players can find jobs as bandits. It adds to the community.
People will flock and gather in large trade hubs, and be more apt to socialize in such places. If you can go everywhere whenever you want, and buy from anywhere, you have no need to be anywhere specific to get something. You just pop around at your leisure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mass transportation has been heavily implied to be a major gameplay element, but hasn't had an in-depth announcement to quote from.
This makes me sad, I know the current generation is all about convenience, and wants everything now. They don't want to have to trudge across a virtual continent to get where they're going. But I find that adds more depth to the game, and it makes you appreciate things more when you get them.
If you had to go on some great adventure to get where you were going, you could tell a story to your friends about it.
And it helps the economy as well, because the players who are willing to transport goods from one end of a game world where they are common, to another end of the game world create more game play elements.
They can make more money off of selling their wares where they are rare. Players can find jobs as caravan guards. Other players can find jobs as bandits. It adds to the community.
People will flock and gather in large trade hubs, and be more apt to socialize in such places. If you can go everywhere whenever you want, and buy from anywhere, you have no need to be anywhere specific to get something. You just pop around at your leisure.
Fast Travel in Pathfinder Online won't work like other games. For starters, while it is faster, it is not instantaneous. Secondly, bandits can pop you out of fast travel and ambush you. Next, there will be need for caravans, which will take some time to organize. Finally, there will be contract boards set up in towns for people to come see what others are willing to pay for. That will create a natural hub for people to meet up and head out into the wilderness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well that doesn't sound too bad. As long as it's not instant travel.
If they add the Plane of Knowledge.. I'm out.
I dunno whether I would quit, but I'd be sorely disappointed. Luckily, based on what they've said so far, a central station full of teleport pads is not part of the plan.