Karzoug.
Who doesn't had clashed sword and spell against the Tyrant of Xin-Shalast and barely managed to survive in RotR's AP? With the upcoming Mythic rules book getting closer, and being aware the demise of this charismatic Runelord being ambiguous (in Inner Sea Magic is said he is presumed dead) I would like to talk about theories concerning the fate of this charismatic super villain.
From my opinion, the Karzoug fought at the end of Rise of the Runelords wasn't the Claimer himself but a Mythic clone (a far more powerful version of simulacra) and the Runelord of Greed just leave the ruins of his city to explore the modern Golarion. It makes sense, a genius like him would realize civilization would had changed during his sleep and it would be quite unwise and very unintelligent to unleash his hordes without being aware of the powers ruling the world.
Karzoug perhaps is out there, disguised, making alliances, gathering information and waiting for the right move to rise again.
Karzoug wasn't mythic. He actually wasn't the most powerful runelord. That goes to the Pride Runelord, followed by Sorshen. Both are the only ones that had mythic tiers, though I think Azlanist has some template on her.
The Karzoug you fight is the real one, confirmed by JJ.
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Karzoug wasn't mythic. He actually wasn't the most powerful runelord. That goes to the Pride Runelord, followed by Sorshen. Both are the only ones that had mythic tiers, though I think Azlanist has some template on her.
This isn't quite right. I believe Alaznist has been stated as explicitly having Mythic tiers (though less than Sorshen or Xanderghul...and she cheated to get 'em via Demonic pacts).
Karzoug wasn't mythic. He actually wasn't the most powerful runelord. That goes to the Pride Runelord, followed by Sorshen. Both are the only ones that had mythic tiers, though I think Azlanist has some template on her.This isn't quite right. I believe Alaznist has been stated as explicitly having Mythic tiers (though less than Sorshen or Xanderghul...and she cheated to get 'em via Demonic pacts).
Probably right, though I swear I remember reading that she was level 20+ because of templates. Which I assumed was the half-fiend template.
Common, somebody who could stand against axe crazy Alaznist, who could even dare to deal with the Denizens of Leng, who managed to manipulate the Dark Rider and the Caulborn and which was a master of transmutation school couldn't fall against a group of normal adventurers without mythic tiers.
I reject the idea the Karzoug you fought in Rise of the Runelords is the real one.
Karzoug is as iconic as the goblins concerning the Inner Sea setting, getting rid of him forever is like killing Lex Luthor or Doctor Doom, you can't! And sure there are other GMs like me who want Karzoug come back, at least as a cameo in future APs.
If you're looking for the Doctor Doom of Golarion, you should be talking about Whispering Tyrant. He's the mythic big bad mothertrucker who throws flaming exploding trucks at you because he can. Or rather he could, if somebody finally freed him...
Tar-Baphon is more Darkseid/Thanos tier than Doctor Doom/Lex Luthor.
Why we never banish/imprision a BBEG like was done to Tar-Baphon ? I allways wonder why PCs never go against someone so powerfull that they have to resort to putting in timeout.
How is was even done ?
Dungeons of Golarion pages 14-23 give you a pretty good idea.
Common, somebody who could stand against axe crazy Alaznist, who could even dare to deal with the Denizens of Leng, who managed to manipulate the Dark Rider and the Caulborn and which was a master of transmutation school couldn't fall against a group of normal adventurers without mythic tiers.
I reject the idea the Karzoug you fought in Rise of the Runelords is the real one.
Karzoug is as iconic as the goblins concerning the Inner Sea setting, getting rid of him forever is like killing Lex Luthor or Doctor Doom, you can't! And sure there are other GMs like me who want Karzoug come back, at least as a cameo in future APs.
*shrug* You can reject it all you want and change it in your own home game, but canon for RotRL is that is actually him and when you kill him, you kill the real Karzoug. Anything beyond that is homebrew.
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Besides, being a player in a campaign and killing the big bad guy in an epic showdown only to learn that we just nailed a lite-clone would be like a punch in the face. If the campaign has a BBEG, then it has to be *the* BBEG. And yes, that's something that I really didn't like about Council of Thieves and Second Darkness.
Common, somebody who could stand against axe crazy Alaznist, who could even dare to deal with the Denizens of Leng, who managed to manipulate the Dark Rider and the Caulborn and which was a master of transmutation school couldn't fall against a group of normal adventurers without mythic tiers.
I reject the idea the Karzoug you fought in Rise of the Runelords is the real one.
Karzoug is as iconic as the goblins concerning the Inner Sea setting, getting rid of him forever is like killing Lex Luthor or Doctor Doom, you can't! And sure there are other GMs like me who want Karzoug come back, at least as a cameo in future APs.Besides, being a player in a campaign and killing the big bad guy in an epic showdown only to learn that we just nailed a lite-clone would be like a punch in the face. If the campaign has a BBEG, then it has to be *the* BBEG. And yes, that's something that I really didn't like about Council of Thieves and Second Darkness.*shrug* You can reject it all you want and change it in your own home game, but canon for RotRL is that is actually him and when you kill him, you kill the real Karzoug. Anything beyond that is homebrew.
It will not be the first time in the history of pen and paper RPGs a retcon makes a whole campaign or module turn to be a "fruitless" event. I really wouldn't find it a punch in the face if you managed to make it so far in the AP, maybe you didn't killed the real guy but you managed to stop him and also did awesome things during your quest (if discovering a legendary city from 10,000 ago is not rewarding enough to you...).
And really, Karzoug needs a second chance.
Cult of Lissala + True Resurrection = Karzoug round 2.
Really to quote "Imhotep" ~Death is only the beginning.
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I agree. But there is always a way to really kill him, just because I think railroading is a blowy way to DM.
That said, I agree that Karzoug would be awesome to treat with a comeback, and it might be that ends up happening in my game...
My idea:
At the end, when you beat him in the Eye of Avarice, (or you destroy the Soul Lens), the resulting energy explosion will tear a hole in reality. Karzoug has a final Wish stored up just in case...
And when Leng and the Material Plane shift, perhaps a fact made worse by the influence of the Leng Device, Karzoug's Wish to escape will be mutated and a massive vortex might just appear where the Soul Lens was. If this happens, all living being in the demiplane will be sucked inside, including Karzoug - but when the PCs end up at at the Foot of Mar-Massif, Karzoug will not be with them. Assuming he gets some good final dialogue in, it might be clear to the PCs that he is dead - torn apart and sucked into some sort of black hole...
Until Shattered Star, when they visit Leng. One of my PCs has been enjoying some random side-games in the Dreamlands as of Chapter 2 in Rise, and I plan to incorporate her and these dreamquests in later, perhaps even in relevance to shattered star. The end result, if Karzoug escapes? Potentially, his soul could not survive as it was in Golarion - but that same soul figment trapped in the Eye was the same figment that exists when one enters the Land of Dreams, his Wish solidifying it enough to get dragged through to the other side of that portal. They may just find him again, but how is anyones guess. I was considering two options:
1) As a new power in the Dreamlands that retains his memories and seeks to return to the Waking World.
2) As a wandering dreamer on some sort of personal quest for the same end, perhaps even to find and attain Kadath. The Crawling Chaos watches him as well.
On a side option, if he -dies-, that Wish could be a Reincarnate pumped up. His soul got out. And he returns to life, memories torn to bits - but as the kicker, he's just a young boy, with no memory of life as a 10,000 year old Runelord, and as he grows up, most people find him pleasant, intelligent, and quite the dreamer. He's actually a nice guy - but he keeps getting flashes of memory, power and strange ability.
And who wouldn't want to play a Reincarnated Karzoug as a PC? They wouldn't know of course, but I think my group would absolutely love that.
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I agree. But there is always a way to really kill him, just because I think railroading is a blowy way to DM.
That said, I agree that Karzoug would be awesome to treat with a comeback, and it might be that ends up happening in my game...
My idea:
At the end, when you beat him in the Eye of Avarice, (or you destroy the Soul Lens), the resulting energy explosion will tear a hole in reality. Karzoug has a final Wish stored up just in case...
And when Leng and the Material Plane shift, perhaps a fact made worse by the influence of the Leng Device, Karzoug's Wish to escape will be mutated and a massive vortex might just appear where the Soul Lens was. If this happens, all living being in the demiplane will be sucked inside, including Karzoug - but when the PCs end up at at the Foot of Mar-Massif, Karzoug will not be with them. Assuming he gets some good final dialogue in, it might be clear to the PCs that he is dead - torn apart and sucked into some sort of black hole...
Until Shattered Star, when they visit Leng. One of my PCs has been enjoying some random side-games in the Dreamlands as of Chapter 2 in Rise, and I plan to incorporate her and these dreamquests in later, perhaps even in relevance to shattered star. The end result, if Karzoug escapes? Potentially, his soul could not survive as it was in Golarion - but that same soul figment trapped in the Eye was the same figment that exists when one enters the Land of Dreams, his Wish solidifying it enough to get dragged through to the other side of that portal. They may just find him again, but how is anyones guess. I was considering two options:
1) As a new power in the Dreamlands that retains his memories and seeks to return to the Waking World.
2) As a wandering dreamer on some sort of personal quest for the same end, perhaps even to find and attain Kadath. The Crawling Chaos watches him as well.
On a side option, if he -dies-, that Wish could be a Reincarnate pumped up. His soul got out. And he returns to life, memories torn...
Very good idea TwiceGreat, mind if I suggest another possible variable?
I don't know if you are familiar with the sci-fi TV show Farscape, but if you are, perhaps you should turn Karzoug into a "Scorpius mind clone" like entity inside the mind of one of the PCs.Cult of Lissala + True Resurrection = Karzoug round 2.
Really to quote "Imhotep" ~Death is only the beginning.
Add the Cypher mages to that equation and things become even more interesting. Maybe the Cypher Mages are afraid after the rise of Xin at the end of Shattered Star the guys at Golemworks start to discover secrets of rune magic and that makes them take a course of action against that possible blow to their authority on the matter?
Perhaps a group of cultist from Xin-Shalast [according to Lost cities of Golarion its being colonized] approach them, bringing the chance to obtain a source of knowledge which even surpass those find in the old crystal palace of the First King: Karzoug himself.A resurrected Karzoug would be more subtle than when during the events of RotR, using groups of adventurers [even the Pathfinder society itself] as pawns for get rid of the other sleeping Runelords, getting rid of any possible competence for when he starts to set his plans for build a new empire of his own.
I think being Karzoug a transmuter and after gathering enough information about the powers in the Inner Sea region of the Age of Lost Omens, his course of action would be similar to that of Auric Goldfinger, striking the economy of Cheliax, Taldor, Andoran, etc by creating gold or platinum in such amount there would be a coin devaluation and a consequent social unrest which can turn into rebellion or insurrections.
A conspiracy of that level would involve not only the Cypher Mages of Riddleport or the cultists of Lissala, but also evil aligned Prophets of Kalistrade [which aren't aware of Karzoug's true intentions of devastating the economy], the Aspis Consortium [who would be used for smuggle false thassilonian artifacts recently created with the help of Karzoug which would help maim the economy] and Galtan revolutionaries [once the fecal material hits the fan they would be the spark which starts a great conflagration in the Inner Sea].
I bump this thread because I think it is of interest.