I want to say in the most common cases, the rake comes from another set of claws (IE a feline that hits with its two claws gets a rake with its rear claws).
Which creature is doing the rake? It might depend on the wording of the ability for it.
While, thematically, I believe that rakes are generally meant to be used with back or hind feet (i.e., the feet not being used to hold the grapple), the rules don't state that this is a necessary prerequisite. As such, you can use any limbs you'd like.
Format: rake (2 claws +8, 1d4+2); Location: Special Attacks.
The text does not say that the claws need to be free to perform those actions, so while, logically, you would be correct, from a RAW perspective, you are sadly not. That said, the GM is free to do as he pleases with this, but unless there is more text somewhere that I'm missing, that's the case.
If one insists on a "logical" attempt at the rules, one could also argue that the eidolon in question could hold with one hand, rake, then switch grips and rake again.
Mr. Death, sir, you really should try to confine all these questions to just one post, and fully explain the one post, rather than making people jump around and try to piece together all three.
See here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxbf?rake-and-how-it-works#4
In addition, now that I actually know your full question,
Rake (Ex): An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward te eidolon's maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
So your question is a non issue. You have limbs that can hold, AND limbs that can rake. You can do both with no issue. You do not, however, get to make claw attacks with your rake-feet-claws, if that's what you're trying to bypass. It expressly says that your rake-feet-claws are for raking, not for clawing.
Mr. Death, sir, you really should try to confine all these questions to just one post, and fully explain the one post, rather than making people jump around and try to piece together all three.
See here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxbf?rake-and-how-it-works#4
In addition, now that I actually know your full question,
Rake (Ex): An eidolon grows dangerous claws on its feet, allowing it to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. These attacks are primary attacks. The eidolon receives these additional attacks each time it succeeds on a grapple check against the target. These rake attacks deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped base form. This evolution counts as one natural attack toward te eidolon's maximum. The summoner must be at least 4th level before selecting this evolution.
So your question is a non issue. You have limbs that can hold, AND limbs that can rake. You can do both with no issue. You do not, however, get to make claw attacks with your rake-feet-claws, if that's what you're trying to bypass. It expressly says that your rake-feet-claws are for raking, not for clawing.
Mechanically, yes, but logically, that's not true. You left the realm of rules and entered the realm of pure logic, so I did as well. You wanted a way to explain how he's using both limbs to execute a rake with both limbs while maintaining a grapple with both limbs, so I was giving you a way in which it could rake with its claws, even if said claws were busy.
It would be more accurate to say that you're going off a logical divergence of the rules. What you said you said was what I actually said. Your interpretation of those rules was, however, based off of logic, and not syntax.
I agree with your logical interpretation, but not with your RAW, mechanical one. The rules do not explicitly state that a rake attack cannot be made with the grappling limbs. A line that I personally feel should be added in there, but this is the Rules forum, not the Opinions forum, so our opinions don't really matter.
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You cannot punch with a hand that is holding a sword, a Tengu with claws cannot claw with a hand that is holding a sword, and a creature with claws cannot use that same limb to punch and claw in the same round. The general consensus is that you cannot use the same limb to do two different things in the same round, and I know there is a ruling somewhere around here that clarifies that with attacks.
Sometimes you can't include every finite detail in a ruling. Common sense is required to fill in the gaps.
Actually, one of the devs stated that you could. I bloody hated that "ruling," but it's there. We don't play that way... but it's there. >.<
I believe they even stated that you could use a weapon two-handed, then release it with your offhand and make an offhand attack. This would generally be the same principle: grab with both whatevers, release one, rake, regrab, release the other, rake, regrab. Ugh. As for your specific examples, the Tengu could, annoyingly, sword, offhand claw, swap sword hands, mainhand claw. Et cetera. Ugh. Horrendous. We definitely don't play this way, but that's the "official" way to do it. >.<
Also, any number of logical methods could be used to argue that point. He could be holding on with one limb and raking with the other, could be holding on with his teeth, his legs, sitting on the guy, what-have-you.
I agree that you can't include every finite detail in a rule. I agree that common sense is required to fill in the gaps. The issue that comes into play is which sense is more common. And in this case, I believe you're extrapolating whereas I'm interpolating, rendering my assessment marginally more accurate or reliable.
That sounds fair to me. I would promise the same, but I've spent three hours on here already, hoping someone would answer *my* one question, and now I have to go be more productive elsewhere, heh. xD
Best of luck. :)
Was there an errata or clarification which says eidolons get to make rake attacks when they pounce? If not then based on the rules for eidolons they only get rake attacks while grappling.
It might be nice if eidolon evolutions like grab, pounce, and rake were based on the universal monster abilities of the same name, but they seem to have their own rules, which are a little different. The most annoying one is the eidolon's Grab, which still only lets you grapple creatures at least oen size smaller where as the universal Grab was corrected to let you grapple creatures up to your own size (by default)
