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Is a target affected by the Ninja Skill Pressure Points when the total damage dealt to the creature (including Sneak Attack) is prevented by Damage Reduction?
Pressure Points* (Su): A ninja with this trick can strike at an opponent’s vital pressure points, causing weakness and intense pain. Whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she also deals 1 point of Strength or Dexterity damage, decided by the ninja. Unlike normal ability damage, this damage can be healed by a DC 15 Healcheck. Each successful check heals 1 point of damage caused by this trick. A ninja with this trick receives a +10 insight bonus on this Healcheck.
If a ninja can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The ninja’s attacks deal extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the ninja flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two ninja levels thereafter. Bonus damage from sneak attacks is precision damage. Should the ninja score acritical hit with a sneak attack, this precision damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (such as a sap, whip, or unarmed strike), a ninja can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, even with the usual –4 penalty.
The ninja must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot, and must be able to reach this spot. A ninja cannot sneak attackwhile striking a creature that has concealment.
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Attacks that deal no damage because of the target's damage reduction do not disrupt spells.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature's tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won't work.
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonusof +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material oralignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
The two possibilities as I see them are…
1. As the entirety of the damage is prevented, no sneak attack damage is actually dealt to the target. As there was no sneak attack damage actually dealt, Pressure Points is not triggered and no Strength nor Dexterity damage is dealt to the target.
2. Even though all the damage was prevented to the target, damage was still considered dealt to the target. As such, Pressure Points still triggers and Strength or Dexterity damage is still dealt to the target.
Any clarification would be most appreciated.
This is the key line from the CRB, Damage Reduction (it's in the text you quoted):
"Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease."
So based on that, I'd say if the DR prevents all the HP damage from the attack, it also prevents the ability score damage.
No need to FAQ this, it's clear. All damage negated by DR? Then no, pressure points inflicts no strength/dex damage.
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"Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease."
Of the three abilities pointed out by your statement, 2 are normal, non-special, attacks and one is Extraordinary. The entry then goes on to talk about spells and spell like abilities, but no where does it talk about supernatural abilities.
To address your statement Claxon,. I suppose I am looking for a clarification between the difference between damage dealt and damage inflicted, if any exists at all.
"Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease."Of the three abilities pointed out by your statement, 2 are normal, non-special, attacks and one is Extraordinary. The entry then goes on to talk about spells and spell like abilities, but no where does it talk about supernatural abilities.
I highlighted the key word in my quote. This means "MOST" special effects, not just the three that are specifically listed.
This creates a general rule. If damage reduction prevents all damage, then don't apply special effects. They included "most" in there because there might be some special effects that have specific text that overrides the general rule, text such as "this effect is still applied even if the attack does no damage".
So, the simple covenant is always in force: we always apply general rules unless we have a specific rule to override the general rule. There is no such specific rule included in the Pressure Points ability. Therefore, the general rule applies.
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"Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease."Of the three abilities pointed out by your statement, 2 are normal, non-special, attacks and one is Extraordinary. The entry then goes on to talk about spells and spell like abilities, but no where does it talk about supernatural abilities.
I highlighted the key word in my quote. This means "MOST" special effects, not just the three that are specifically listed.
This creates a general rule. If damage reduction prevents all damage, then don't apply special effects. They included "most" in there because there might be some special effects that have specific text that overrides the general rule, text such as "this effect is still applied even if the attack does no damage".
So, the simple covenant is always in force: we always apply general rules unless we have a specific rule to override the general rule. There is no such specific rule included in the Pressure Points ability. Therefore, the general rule applies.
Alright, fair enough. How does the entry for Damage Reduction in the Universal Monster Rules section alter your premise?
A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.
The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.
Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Others are vulnerable to certain materials, such as adamantine, alchemical silver, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not of the correct type or made of the correct material have their damage reduced, although a high enhancement bonus can overcome some forms of damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction?
Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.
When a damage reduction entry has a dash (—) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.
A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon that inflicts damage of either type overcomes this damage reduction.
A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction, and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.
Format: DR 5/silver; Location: Defensive Abilities.
I specifically point to the first paragraph.
..."Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease."Of the three abilities pointed out by your statement, 2 are normal, non-special, attacks and one is Extraordinary. The entry then goes on to talk about spells and spell like abilities, but no where does it talk about supernatural abilities.
I highlighted the key word in my quote. This means "MOST" special effects, not just the three that are specifically listed.
This creates a general rule. If damage reduction prevents all damage, then don't apply special effects. They included "most" in there because there might be some special effects that have specific text that overrides the general rule, text such as "this effect is still applied even if the attack does no damage".
So, the simple covenant is always in force: we always apply general rules unless we have a specific rule to override the general rule. There is no such specific rule included in the Pressure Points ability. Therefore, the general rule applies.
Alright, fair enough. How does the entry for Damage Reduction in the Universal Monster Rules section alter your premise?
** spoiler omitted **
I'm assuming you're referring to the section of the first paragraph the mentions energy damage? If this is the case there is no conflict. Energy damage would include fire, electricity, cold, acid, sonic, and arguable force (maybe). A sneak attack is none of those. If use you a weapon with 1d6 fire damage it will inflict that 1d6 no matter how much DR the creature has, but if all the physical damage (including sneak attack) is negated Pressure points still wont inflict any str/dex damage.
This is really simple. If you do not do any sneak attack damage the Pressure Points ability does not happen.
Whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she also deals 1 point of Strength or Dexterity damage, decided by the ninja.
Since the Pressure Points ability requires doing sneak attack damage if there is no sneak attack damage that got through then the ability damage does not get through either. Nothing in your quote changes that.
Your quote is indicating that DR does not affect energy damage, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Thus, DR is not preventing the supernatural ability damage.
What it is preventing is the Sneak attack damage. The lack of sneak attack damage is what prevents the ability from occurring.
Also, you may not want to quote the d20pfsrd in a rules discussion. It is not official and can have errors.
- Gauss
I'm assuming you're referring to the section of the first paragraph the mentions energy damage? If this is the case there is no conflict. Energy damage would include fire, electricity, cold, acid, sonic, and arguable force (maybe). A sneak attack is none of those. If use you a weapon with 1d6 fire damage it will inflict that 1d6 no matter how much DR the creature has, but if all the physical damage (including sneak attack) is negated Pressure points still wont inflict any str/dex damage.
I'm assuming he meant the part about "supernatural" since Pressure Points is a (Su) ability.
Nevertheless, this entire sentence is talking about a supernatural (etc.) ability doing all the damage. For example, if the Pressure Points (Su) ability simply said "Touch an enemy to do 10 HP damage" then no DR would ever apply.
But it doesn't say that. It is a supernatural ability to do an additional effect when a sneak attack inflicts damage. The DR is applied to the sneak attack - if it negates the full damage, then the extra abilities, regardless of type (e.g. supernatural), are also negated, as per the general rule I discussed earlier.
I'm assuming he meant the part about "supernatural" since Pressure Points is a (Su) ability.
Nevertheless, this entire sentence is talking about a supernatural (etc.) ability doing all the damage. For example, if the Pressure Points (Su) ability simply said "Touch an enemy to do 10 HP damage" then no DR would ever apply.
But it doesn't say that. It is a supernatural ability to do an additional effect when a sneak attack inflicts damage. The DR is applied to the sneak attack - if it negates the full damage, then the extra abilities, regardless of type (e.g. supernatural), are also negated, as per the general rule I discussed earlier.
That makes a lot more sense than what I thought...