| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Because I never got an answer before and I'm still curious.
Put succinctly: Does the Eidolon's Rend Evolution follow the same rules as the Universal Monster Rules Rend ability (specifically it's limitation to triggering only once per round), or does it follow its own rules?
While it lacks the qualifying phrase saying the ability IS limited, that's not always (not usually I might tentatively say) an indicator that something is allowed, and could just be a typo.
Further muddying the waters is a quote from Jason Buhlman in this thread stating the intent was, at least in the beginning, for it to work as normal. Though if so, why not include that sentence, or say "It works as the UMR Rend" or something to that effect?
It's quite confusingly written in my eyes and I'd like some clarification if it's possible.
I think the universal monster rules applicable to eidolons have not just been written as "works as the XY UMR." because the devs don't want to expect players to look into the bestiary appendices to make their PCs. Which is also why it explicitly states that eidolons have d10 hit dice, full BAB and 6 skill points per HD. The eidolon table even goes so far as to explicitly state the levels at which the eidolon gets a +1 raise to any ability score and when it gets feats. All things you would know as a GM who understands how hit dice advancement works and what the outsider traits are.
Same goes for ACs. Most of the stuff in that table is redundant, just there for convenience.
Long story short: I think rend (and other eidolon UMR evolutions) works exactly as the UMR.
That's what I think too, but the fact remains that it IS worded differently, so I can see where people might argue otherwise, and with at least one good leg to stand on.
My personal opinion is that if it is possible to argue the matter one way or another well enough it's FAQ worthy, which is why I've brought it up again (the other thread was derailed a bit).
Anyone else wanna chime in?
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Rend (Ex) If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round. The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature's description. The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus.
Rend (Ex): An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon's Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
First, sorry for spamming quotes, I always feel that having the info first hand makes it easier for people to comment on it later.
Second, Rend, as found under the summoner is specific to eidolons, whereas rend as found in the Universal Monster Rules is more general to all creatures with rend. Specific trumps general?
EDIT: corrected a few typoes
And that's where I see the secondary arguments coming in.
The problem I find with it is that while specific does trump general usually, this one isn't a specific rule per se, it's a LACK of rule, which is usually a gray area at best in this ruleset.
It seems like these are two distinct abilities. UMR says if you hit with 2 or more natural attacks while the Eidelon's states two claws against the same target.
In otherwords, a monster with rend would get the rend when they hit with their second attack in a round while the eidelon gets it for the second claw against a specific creature.
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I would stick with specific for now, I think it might be intended. Mainly because of the wording of the two rends:
Eidolons have their claws latch into their target.
Creatures themselves latch into their target. (for some odd reason I'm picturing a bit more of a grapple type thing)
When you get impaling critical, there's an actual action involved with taking said weapon out. But no reference is made to rend, even though said weapon is embedded into their flesh.
It could go either way. I know that doesn't help much :(. Perhaps push forward for now with faith that it was intended by some developer?
All the dev commentary (by which I mean, that one tiny quote, in all the 10-ish threads I read through looking for one) I can find points toward it being NOT intended, however, I put a link to the one bit I could find in the OP. =/
"Pushing forward" isn't really an issue, as it has no further relevance on the game going forward, but my curiosity remains unsated.
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Yeah... In my short lived experience, it always end up being my DM to decide, and he's hard headed about things.
For PFS, never been, but your right that it could go either way. At the same time though, what level would an eidolon have to be in order to get 4 attacks with it's claws? I'm a bit a lazy atm, otherwise I'd look into it further. If it's past 12, it probably won't see action in PFS.
I don't know why you need an answer when you already have Jason Bulmahn flat out stating that it's limited to once per round...
The player was 7th level. He could have, I believe, gotten those 4 claws earlier than that. If I remember right limbs and claws are pretty cheap Evolutions.
I don't know why you need an answer when you already have Jason Bulmahn flat out stating that it's limited to once per round...
I don't really NEED one, I just want one.
Ignoring the specific scenario, which kinda itches at my brain, the fact that I had to dig back to 2009 to find that reference is really odd to me.
While I believe that quote is correct, I'm still a bit baffled as to why it wasn't clarified in the actual text, since it seems obvious it was unclear from the start.