Non-Lethal Death

[Eric Saxon]

Ok, so I had me a weird scenario yesterday. BBEG has 66 hp and we need to capture her. Alchemist drops her with 23 lethal dmg. Everyone else drops her with 41 non-lethal dmg.

BBEG is down to 2hp which I don’t know, I hit her with 27 non-lethal dmg and she dies due to taking 25 lethal dmg, because all dmg beyond 0 is lethal, which takes her way beyond her CON.

We checked again and on p. 191 CR it appears that she has only taken 23 lethal from the alchemist and the 25 lethal from me, so would this mean that she has only taken 48 lethal and she’s still alive? Or would she be dead? Mind you, I'm not a rules lawyer but since I don't know this info, I'd like to hear if you guys ever came up against this before?

Is she still alive under current rules?

And was this rule different in the past?

[Cerberus Seven]

From the SRD:

Quote:

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.

So your BBEG should still have been alive.

[Yora]

Alive.

23 lethal plus 41 nonlethal does not put her down to 2 hp. She is still at 43 hp plus 41 nonlethal damage.

You hit her for 27 nonlethal damage.
2 points of nonlethal put her unconscious.
The rest 25 points of nonlethal are lethal damage, which are substracted from 43 hp.

She is now at 18 hp with 18 nonlethal damage and unconscious.

[Eric Saxon]

Was the rule different in the past? Again, pure curiosity. And if she only took 40 lethal and 30 non-lethal, would she still go down? Or does she have to take over 66 non-lethal to go down?

[Yora]

At least since the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook in 2000 it has been that way.

You don't actually count damage.
You do count remaining hit points, and you do count nonlethal damage.
And it nonlethal damage is greater than remaining hit points, you fall unconscious.
But you don't count lethal damage points.

[Eric Saxon]

TYVM.

[Lab_Rat]

Alive

66HP of non-lethal and 25HP of lethal damage = BBEG is unconscious with 41HP.

[Majuba]

First - the BBEG should have been alive - no question.

Second - it's even worse/better than the above posts suggest, and sadly a recent Paizo book reinforced the incorrect perception (Champions of Purity went out of it's way to quote the rule wrong).

You do not take lethal damage from nonlethal hits until the nonlethal exceeds your max hp, not the total damage.

PRD wrote:

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.

End result of the above is as Lab Rat said: 66 non-lethal, 25 lethal.

[Eric Saxon]

TYVM guys, that really does explain it even better.

So 34 non-lethal and 33 lethal would make her unconscious. But she wouldn't take lethal dmg from non-lethal attacks until she hit 66 non-lethal dmg, if I'm understanding your explanation?

[Joesi]

Yes that's what he's saying and that's what the rules specifically mention.
Because out of all the nonlethal damage dealt only 2 of it exceeded 66 hp (68/66), only 2 lethal damage is dealt aside from the lethal attack.

Quote:

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage

^^^ quoting the same thing as above just with a different part bolded.

Personally I dislike even the use/mention of "current hit points". People should be keeping track of the damage they receive, not the health they have remaining.