A FAQ question could read something like this:
In mounted combat, who does the combat maneuver, such as overrun, the mount or the rider?
My answer would be: choose one. All feats of the one chosen would be applicable. Additionally some feats (like trample) will add to the overrun regardless of who was chosen. As for AoOs, strictly speaking only the one attempting the maneuver would provoke. Since the DC of the maneuver would increase with amount of damage done. Though I would allow the AoO to be used against either (though I think that would be a GM ruling).
Overrun:
An adventuring cavalier, Sir Mugsy the 42nd, who sits atop his mighty steed Stompy, spots a lone goblin, who we well call Piddles, in the midst of the road. Sir Mugsy wheels his horse and rides down Piddles. And rules confusion hits.
Sir Mugsy and Stompy try to overrun Piddles. Who is actually doing the overrun? Use the mount's CMB, or the rider's CMB? Assuming Piddles does not avoid, who does the goblin have the option of striking at, mount, rider or either?
Sir Mugsy has Trample, but his mount has Improved Overrun. He and his mount attempt to overrun a goblin. If you said that Sir Mugsy was doing the overrun, does Stompy having Improved Overrun do anything? Same question for Charge Through and Greater Overrun.
Alternatively, Sir Mugsy has Trample and Improved Overrun. If you said that Stompy was doing the overrun, does Sir Mugsy's Improved Overrun do anything? Same question for Charge Through and Greater Overrun.
Thanks!
Poor Piddles!
I'm going to need to do some reading now, but the horse is performing the overrun maneuver. Trample is a feat that the rider can take that specifically applies to his mount. Stompy's Improved Overrun feat benefits him/her during the overrun as well. The bonus to CMB counts, no AoO, no avoiding due to Trample.
Poor Piddles, indeed.
Edited for clarity
Assuming Piddles does not avoid, who does the goblin have the option of striking at, mount, rider or either?
Piddles, if he had an opportunity to make an AoO on a charging mount and rider, could choose to strike either. The rider is sharing the space of the mount and is therefore within reach.
Thanks!
Don't thank us yet. The more people that respond to this, the probability of this thread turning into a mud-slinging rules mess approaches one. Exponentially more quickly for mounted combat questions...
This is slightly off-topic, but related to a cavalier build I am working on. Does Charge Through feat allow you to select the charge target as the overrun target?
If so, does this combo work well (assuming a hit): Charge + Charge Through (same target) + Greater Overrun (free AoO) + Trample (can't avoid overrun) = 2 attacks (charge+AoO).
It's about the only way I can see getting multiple attacks per round on a target without Pounce.
I agree it is a little confusing which feats should be on the mount vs the rider, and if any kind of synergy/sharing can or should be allowed. For instance, if mount has Spring Attack, could it also attack as part of the charge action?
I'm agreeing with the interpretation put forth that you pick one and apply all feats to that creature's attempt as applicable.
It's elegant, and it works.
It doesn't work. If I were mounted on my horse and we performed an overrun, I couldn't use my improved overrun feat, nor could I decide to use my CMB instead of my horse's. The horse is the one doing the overrun and I'm along for the ride.
I would also not call it elegant to declare before each action whether I'm using my horses's feats and CMB or my own.
This is slightly off-topic, but related to a cavalier build I am working on. Does Charge Through feat allow you to select the charge target as the overrun target?
If so, does this combo work well (assuming a hit): Charge + Charge Through (same target) + Greater Overrun (free AoO) + Trample (can't avoid overrun) = 2 attacks (charge+AoO).
Where to begin?
Charging is a full round action. At the end of the charge, you may make one attack action. That attack action could be a single melee attack or a maneuver that can replace one attack action, such as an overrun. Trample allows your horse to also make one hoof attack if you knock your target prone when you overrun.Charge through allows you to attempt to overrun one target in the path of your charge. Your charge path ends when you reach the target of your charge, ergo, you cannot use Charge Through to target the same creature that you're charging. It must be a separate creature.
if mount has Spring Attack, could it also attack as part of the charge action?
You cannot combine Spring Attack and Charge. They're both full-round actions.
I'm not sure you are understanding how this set of feats interact. Charge Through grants a FREE action overrun, so the initial charge can be a normal attack, and does not limit the target (you are adding a limitation that isn't in the RAW). Greater Overrun grants an AoO after a successful overrun action. Ergo, you could get a normal attack AND an AoO IF you can successfully also perform the overrun maneuver. Trample is simply there to prevent the target from choosing to avoid the attack, NOT to get a free mount attack. Perhaps Ride By Attack is also necessary for this combo to work better.This is slightly off-topic, but related to a cavalier build I am working on. Does Charge Through feat allow you to select the charge target as the overrun target?
If so, does this combo work well (assuming a hit): Charge + Charge Through (same target) + Greater Overrun (free AoO) + Trample (can't avoid overrun) = 2 attacks (charge+AoO).
Where to begin?
Charging is a full round action. At the end of the charge, you may make one attack action. That attack action could be a single melee attack or a maneuver that can replace one attack action, such as an overrun. Trample allows your horse to also make one hoof attack if you knock your target prone when you overrun.
Charge through allows you to attempt to overrun one target in the path of your charge. Your charge path ends when you reach the target of your charge, ergo, you cannot use Charge Through to target the same creature that you're charging. It must be a separate creature.
if mount has Spring Attack, could it also attack as part of the charge action?You cannot combine Spring Attack and Charge. They're both full-round actions.
Yes, I was trying to figure out if the MOUNT could take an attack action while it was being used for a charge action. Didn't think it would work, but was trying to think it through. The lines between which part of mounted actions are reliant on the abilities of the rider vs the mount are VERY blurry, IMO.
Don't thank us yet. The more people that respond to this, the probability of this thread turning into a mud-slinging rules mess approaches one. Exponentially more quickly for mounted combat questions...
Toldja so...
I'm not sure you are understanding how this set of feats interact.
No, I think you need to sit down with your CRB and APG and read through this again.
Trample
Trample allows for a free hoof attack on an overrun, which was part of the question. It also prevents the target from avoiding the charge, which *wasn't* a part of your question, so I didn't mention it.
Charge Through
Just go ahead and try to find something in here that indicates the you can overrun the same target that you're charging.
Additional info:
Overrun
Charge Through (Combat)
You can overrun enemies when charging.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
Normal: You must have a clear path toward the target of your charge.
Is says "complete the charge" after your overrun. If you've already moved through their square, how can they possibly be the target of your charge?
Ride By Attack
How does this affect your question?
If you are asking a question and don't like my answer, don't accuse me of not understanding how it works. Go read it yourself first and bring in quotes instead of accusing me of reading things into it that aren't there.
I have read the feats numerous times, but I had a different interpretation of the bolded part. I originally felt you could stack the effects and resolve Charge Through first on the charge target (to get the AoO), then resolve the charge (on the now prone target).
I see where you are coming from now, and will agree that the RAI of Charge Through is to allow the character to "push aside" one target other that stands between you and your charge target. You can still get two attacks that round (Charge + AoO on the Charge Through target IF you have Greater Overrun), but not allow a "double up" effect I was going for.
I brought up Trample ONLY for the removal of the target's option of avoiding the overrun (not charge). The free hoof attack from Trample is just gravy.
I brought up Ride By Attack as a potential alternate route for triggering an overrun AoO, but I really didn't give much initial thought to it, and I don't think it is relevant to this discussion anymore.
This may be a bit late to add to the discussion, but I'd like to mention a few things. 1) Either Trample or Improved Overrun will stop an opponent's ability to avoid an overrun. 2) I agree that Charge Through + Greater Overrun will allow an AOO against an overrun-knocked down foe between you and your main target. 3)Since Charge Through gives you a FREE overrun attempt (plus an AOO if you knock him over, and all with +2 charge bonuses)on an intermediate foe, if successful, you should still be able to get an overrun attempt on the actual charge target as part of an "overrun charge". 4) "Knocked down" doesn't mean "tripped", so things that are immune to being tripped aren't necessarily immune to being knocked down.
As a side note, things can really get ridiculous if you have the Barbarian feat, Overbearing Onslaught, allowing you to make multiple overruns in one turn. An argument could be made that it would apply to a charge overrun through multiple intermediates (maybe in combo with the Charge Through feat). And if it's not a charge, then your foes don't even need to be in straight line. Zigzag from one to the next until your move speed runs out. I haven't figured out if you can successfully overrun, then double back and overrun them again with sufficient movement left. Add in such feats as Vicious Stomp and Spiked Destroyer for even more fun!
Now, if anyone is still paying attention to this discussion, let the fur fly!
I forgot to mention that, as an additional comment to my point number 3 above, if you succeed in knocking down your final overrun charge target, then get in your AOO from Greater Overrun in addition to your regular charge attack. Make sure you have a high enough DEX to get in all these AOO's.
Use your mount's size and Strength modifier for the opposed Strength check you make to resolve the overrun.
What I really want clarity on is which feats are expected to be on the mount vs the player. The ones that affect movement (Nimble Steps, et al) make sense to be on the mount, while other feats (Improved/Greater Overrun) make sense on either and both(if both rider and mount have greater overrun, do each get an AoO?).
Here's a couple of webpages that discuss it further: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187351
and http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170915. I don't know if they will specifically answer your question though.