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I have a number of questions regarding the Double-Chained Kama and how it can be used.
After searching these boards it would seem that I am not alone. I am hoping that people with the same or similar questions will click the FAQ button so we can have all these FAQ requests in one place, and hopefully get an official ruling on this weapon.
Kama, Double-Chained
This weapon comprises a pair of kama connected with an 8-foot length of chain.
Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.
Furthermore, the weapon is given the following properties in the weapon table;
double, monk, reach, trip.1). Do feats that apply to the Kama (Weapon: Focus, Specialization, Finesse. And Perfect Strike), also apply to the Double-Chained Kama?
The weapon is described as "a pair of Kama" and in the benefit section it states that "the wielder can attack as if armed with a single Kama in each hand".
2). What does "extend the chain to make a single reach attack" mean exactly?
If you have multiple attacks due to high BAB can you make all of your iterative attacks at reach, or only one of them? Since it has been FAQ'd that a Monk can make all of their FoB attacks with a single weapon, can a Monk make a Flurry at reach?
3). What about "if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain."
If you're attacking at reach, with one end of the weapon, does this mean you can switch to TWF as a free action by pulling on the chain? What action is it to switch back to reach? If you're attacking at reach do you also threaten adjacent with the other Kama?
4). Does the weapon also have the disarm property? In the benefit section it would imply so; "the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents."
Those are the most common questions that I have seen on these boards and the ones that I have myself. I'm sure there are more that I cannot think of at the moment, so feel free to chime in.
Thank you for reading, please take the time to click the FAQ button. I'd really like to use this weapon in PFS, but I'm reluctant to do so based on the amount of confusion I personally have over how it can or cannot be used.
I know it seems easier to put all of them questions in one post, but the dev team likes for each question to have its own FAQ. I don't know why, but that is how it is.
1. No. You can use feats for one weapon on another weapon unless it is specifically stated.
2.I am not sure, but I would assume this means you can use it as a reach weapon.
3. It just means if one of them is disarmed, you can get it back as a free action. Normally picking up a disarmed or dropped weapon is a move action. You can not threaten with reach if you are not using it as a reach weapon.
4 .It probably should have the disarm property. If you make a thread for this question I would ask "Should" it have the disarm property.
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I know it seems easier to put all of them questions in one post, but the dev team likes for each question to have its own FAQ. I don't know why, but that is how it is.
That is weird. One would think that a FAQ thread with 40 clicks would get faster attention than 4 threads with 10 clicks each. I'll see how this goes before creating more threads on the topic...
For the record;
1). I agree with you. But if its not a Kama the words "as if" need to be changed to avoid confusion. The interpretation of "As if" is similar enough to "treated as" to create confusion.
Treated as: If a weapon’s description says it is “treated as” another weapon, a character lacking the appropriate exotic weapon proficiency, can still use it as if it were the other kind of weapon and feats such as Weapon Focus still apply, as do abilities requiring a certain weapon. For example, the butterfly knife allows a proficient user to open or close it as a free action and is otherwise treated as a dagger, meaning she can wield it as a dagger, gain the benefit of Weapon Focus (dagger) when wielding it, use it as the target of a spell that only affects daggers, and so on.
2). I think the language should be cleaned up so it's either a double weapon or a reach weapon, but not both, in any given round.
3). I guess, but whether the other end is being whipped around or lying on the ground does it (or should it) change the action required to retrieve it?
4). I presume so as well.
The "As if" is not for feats. They said you can attack a "as if armed with a single Kama in each hand".
If they said treat the weapon like a kama or as if it were a kama, without specifying for a specific purpose then you can assume it can be treated as one without limits.
edit:I agree with your number 2 statement also. It needs to be written better.
For 3, no action is need to change how a weapon is used. If the double kama required one a new rule would have to be written for it.
The "as if" line seems more to indicate that consider each hand separately rather than a single weapon. For example, if you were wielding a quarterstaff and someone disarms you, you drop the whole quarterstaff. But if you're wielding a Double Chained Kama and someone disarms you, you only drop one of them because it's treated "as if" you were wielding two individual weapons and, thus, you can "yoink" on the chain to get the other one back. In other words, they need two successful disarm maneuvers between your turns in order to fully disarm you of the weapon.
I agree that you have to be disarmed of both ends of the weapon, but the "as if" line refers to the double-weapon feature by my reading.
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"Benefit: The wielder can attack as if with a single Kama in each hand".
That's really the root for a lot of the confusion surrounding this weapon. A single Kama is;
- finessable
- affected by Weapon Focus (Kama), as well as Weapon Specialization (Kama).
- legal for a "Perfect Strike" as per the feat.
Yet, it's also perfectly clear that this weapon is its own distinct weapon which has nothing in common with a Kama, except for the fact that one of its listed benefits is that you can attack with it as if it were a Kama, or more specifically, a pair of them... A pair of Kama are;
- finessable
- affected by Weapon Focus (Kama), as well as Weapon Specialization (Kama).
- legal for a "Perfect Strike" as per the feat.
Round and round we go (or, at least I do)...
Then why is that line even necessary? That's how a double-weapon works anyway; you wield it in two hands and can use TWF as if you had a weapon in each hand. But in the default case for double weapons such as Quarterstaff, it all still counts as a single unit so you're disarmed of the weapon as a single unit. In the case of the Double Chain Kama, it supplants the standard rule by specifying you're wielding it as two separate weapons rather than a single unit if you use it as a double weapon. If you take the option to wield it as a 2-h weapon (an option for any double weapon, mind you), you get to attack at reach (you don't normally get this option with, say, a quarterstaff).
I have no idea. It could be reminder text. I just hope we can get them to rewrite it. :)
Normally I can read a rule pretty well, but this weapon has been confusing me since the book came out.
yeah, this is how I treat it personally... not saying it's RAW, but I think it's RAI.
Double-Chained Kama
If you have Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus/Specialization (Kama), you can use those benefits when you're making melee attacks with the weapon using the two Kama ends. When you use the reach function of the weapon, you can't use those abilities, as they are not valid for the reach since a kama can't be used at reach.
If you have Weapon Focus/Specialization (double-chained kama) then you can use those benefits at both reach and when using the kama's in two hands.
Ugh, I agree, the listings for this were a mess. All the monk reach weapons in UE for that matter are pretty unclear on how they are used at reach, or which side of the weapon is which damage dice, but this one took the cake.
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yeah, this is how I treat it personally... not saying it's RAW, but I think it's RAI.
Double-Chained Kama
If you have Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus/Specialization (Kama), you can use those benefits when you're making melee attacks with the weapon using the two Kama ends. When you use the reach function of the weapon, you can't use those abilities, as they are not valid for the reach since a kama can't be used at reach.
If you have Weapon Focus/Specialization (double-chained kama) then you can use those benefits at both reach and when using the kama's in two hands.
That seems reasonable. But that would would the weapon unique in that regard wouldn't it? I can't think of any other weapon where this would be the case? Where feats don't work when the weapon is used in a different manner... If you use your Longsword to deal non-lethal damage you incur penalties but still get to apply feats like Focus/Specalization don't you?
Sorry if that's a poor analogy, I can't think of too many scenarios that are close.
Edit: ooh! Bastard Sword/Katana. If you have the EWP feat you can use these weapons in a different manner and apply feats like Focus/Specialization... But I think you can still are those feats without having EWP if you use the weapon 2 handed (as a martial weapon). I think.
There's a couple of others, but they're all exotic weapons.
Double Walking Stick Katana : It has two Wakizashi's inside it, but if you sheath them both, you can use it as a Quarterstaff. I would argue that weapon focus (quarterstaff) would work when using it as a quarterstaff, while weapon focus (wakizashi) would work when using the wakizashi blades. Or, weapon focus (double walking stick katana) would work when using it in either mode, but not help with quarterstaffs or wakizashi.
Kusarigama : This is a kama or sickle with a chain and weighted end. I'd argue that using the kama/sickle end is like a dual chained kama, while the weighted end would require weapon focus (kusarigama), so you're better off in this one just getting that.