Stacking effects that treat an attack as 1 size category for the purposes...


Rules Questions


5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So if I have a human fighter wielding a spiked light steel shield, which treats the shield as 1 size category larger for the purposes of damage rolls with the shield, what happens if that same shield is later enchanted with the bashing special ability?

My belief is that the spiked shield is treated as a large shield for the purposes of damage, and the bashing special ability would then treat it as 2 size categories larger than large for the purposes of damage, but there are those people that disagree with me, saying that the 2 effects don't stack.

A similar example is a large wolf that takes improved natural attack and has strongjaw cast on it. would that treat the wolf's bite as if it were a colossal creature(3 size categories larger), or gargantuan(2 sizes)?

Please help me get this answered, and press the FAQ button, so the matter can be resolved once and for all.

Sczarni

...or you could have utilized any number of the other threads that already exist on this matter, including the one I showed you earlier.


That's not the point, the point is it's a problem that should be addressed. Please don't spawn another argument here, I'm only trying to get it clarified here.


This does not need a FAQ because the rules are clear, even though many people have trouble with them. Effects that increase size stack unless they say they don't. However, very, very few effects actually just increase size--most give a "phantom size" that is set at a specific level.

For example:

If Effect 1 and 2 both say something like: "Your weapon's damage increase by one size step." then you'd be fine, and they'd stack.

If Effect 1 and 2, however, both say something closer to: "Your weapon is treated as one size larger than normal." then the effects would not stack because there is nothing to stack. They both just set the size at one size larger than normal, neither redefines normal.

In short, "Your weapon (which is X) gets a +1" would generally stack, while "your weapon = X + 1" will not. In the first case, the formula ends up X + 1 + 1 if there are multiples, while the second would just be X + 1 AND X + 1.

For your specific questions:

Martiln wrote:
So if I have a human fighter wielding a spiked light steel shield, which treats the shield as 1 size category larger for the purposes of damage rolls with the shield, what happens if that same shield is later enchanted with the bashing special ability?

You could use the shield spike for (size + 1) damage, or bash with the shield itself for (size + 2) damage.

The shield itself is enchanted with Bashing, not the Spike.

Martiln wrote:
A similar example is a large wolf that takes improved natural attack and has strongjaw cast on it. would that treat the wolf's bite as if it were a colossal creature(3 size categories larger), or gargantuan(2 sizes)?

As I explained above, Improved Natural Attack has wording similar to my first example, which will stack because it raises the damage one step, but does not set the value.

Strong Jaw, however, specifically references the creature's natural size. If you were trying to combine Strong Jaw with a similar effect (like an impact amulet of mighty strikes) it would not combine.

The two effects, however, will "stack" with each other (I put "stack" in quotes because there's not actually a stacking of bonuses happening).

The way it would work is that Strong Jaw would raise the effective size of the wolf, then Improved Natural Attack would bump the damage up a step from there. That means the damage increase from Improved Natural Attack is included, because it simple adds a step on the end.

Assuming you're talking about a 7th level Wolf companion, they'd deal 1d8 damage normally, 2d6 with just Improved Natural Attack, 2d8 with just Strong Jaw, and 3d8 with both (since your base would be 2d8 from size followed by an increase from INA).

Sczarni

mplindustries wrote:
Assuming you're talking about a 7th level Wolf companion, they'd deal 1d8 damage normally, 2d6 with just Improved Natural Attack, 2d8 with just Strong Jaw, and 3d8 with both (since your base would be 2d8 from size followed by an increase from INA).

Just wanted to correct you there, for a bite it goes: Large 1d8 => Huge 2d6 => Gargantuan 2d8 => Colossal 4d6

Natural attacks double their dice every other size increase. They work differently than manufactured weapons.


Nefreet wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Assuming you're talking about a 7th level Wolf companion, they'd deal 1d8 damage normally, 2d6 with just Improved Natural Attack, 2d8 with just Strong Jaw, and 3d8 with both (since your base would be 2d8 from size followed by an increase from INA).

Just wanted to correct you there, for a bite it goes: Large 1d8 => Huge 2d6 => Gargantuan 2d8 => Colossal 4d6

Natural attacks double their dice every other size increase. They work differently than manufactured weapons.

I used the charts from Strong Jaw and INA.

Strong Jaw
This shows that a Large Bite would turn into 2d8 damage.

Improved Natural Attack

This then shows that 2d8 becomes 3d8.

Sczarni

Interesting. That would seem to conflict with the chart in the back of the Bestiary.

Grand Lodge

Martiln wrote:
That's not the point, the point is it's a problem that should be addressed. Please don't spawn another argument here, I'm only trying to get it clarified here.

This question got asked for YEARS now. It has an unofficial answer for JJ and basically the consensus of the board is that we agree with that. I HIGHLY doubt that they will bother to come up with something more official now just because you asked for it when it was ignored for years because it was fine for years. Board consensus, it does not stack. Don't like it, get your GM to rule otherwise. Doing it for PFS...well your pretty much out of luck then. Your GM still says no...well then your outa luck there too (because even if the official word was that it does stack, a GM can STILL say not in my game and you really don't have a recourse to that other then to walk out of the game after your chat).


I am the GM in my group, and we all agree at my table that they stack with eachother. I was unaware that it was already asked about for years, but at the rate in which they've been answered FAQs, I figured it was worth a shot if enough people showed interest, but if no one on the board cares, I'll stop wasting my time.

Sczarni

It's not that nobody cares, it's that this has already been settled. It's all written within the effects themselves, you just have to read them. Occasionally someone comes along who is not familiar with the rules, and asks the same question (usually revolving around Lead Blades and Impact), and people are happy to oblige them, but when you don't listen to reason and run off to post another thread about it you're going to get the cold shoulder.


Nefreet wrote:
Interesting. That would seem to conflict with the chart in the back of the Bestiary.

Improved natural attack isn't on a chart, that's why it gets wonky.

Grand Lodge

Martiln wrote:
I am the GM in my group, and we all agree at my table that they stack with eachother. I was unaware that it was already asked about for years, but at the rate in which they've been answered FAQs, I figured it was worth a shot if enough people showed interest, but if no one on the board cares, I'll stop wasting my time.

Your the GM...so what the heck does it matter then?!? If you and your group is happy with it stacking, keep having it stack and play your games and be happy. Just be warned that it can get out of hand. Throwing shield is an exotic shield that does 1d6 as a weapon. It already does 2d6 with bashing, but if you let it stack, it will be 3d6 and impact will make it 4d6 and lead blade will make it 6d6...and that's before ACTUAL size increases. Using a large version of this shield two handed for 8d6 and enlarge person will be 12d6. If we take the impact out (8d6), you can do this at level 1...so yeah...no. That's why we say it doesn't stack. And that's just the tip of things you can break is things stacked like this FYI....

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