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Just wondering if the Feint/IF is a viable options for general play, or is it geared more towards solo play? I like the option to be able to sneak attack at pretty much all times.
Is it viable? Sure, it can work to get your sneak attack off.
Is it better than flanking someone? No, because you're never going to get off a full-attack when feinting.
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Absolutely. And it's especially useful if you're low level, as the full attack issue doesn't matter until you've got iterative attacks at level 8 or have optimized for two weapon fighting (which is harder to do with a rogue than is desirable).
It also gives you a way to sneak attack before your slower fighter flanking buddy gets into position. If you're doing a rogue build trying to max options for sneak attack, I would definitely recommend it.
That doesn't mean don't work on flanking tactics with your party, of course, but there's no reason you couldn't do both.
Since you're going to be maxing out Bluff anyway, you can also make a decent party face while you're at it. There are some neat rogue talents and archetypes that supplement Bluff quite nicely. Few unfortunately apply to feinting, but the exceptions are the rake archetype, which gives you a blanket bonus to bluff (in place of trapfinding, scaling at the same rate, which can stack up VERY nicely) and the honeyed words rogue talent, which allows you to roll two dice when making a bluff effort and taking the highest (once per day at levels 1-5, plus one per every 5 levels).
Also saw the greater feint which makes the target lose his Dex bonus until my next turn, so against a higher dex enemy is beneficial all around.
(requires combat expertise, improved feint, BAB 6, int 13)
Yep, that makes in in particular a good "party" trick as it were. :)
Might consider it as I build my ninja :) Thank you
I'm a fan of the Two Weapon Feint option that allows you to substitute your first attack for a feint attempt, rendering foes flat-footed for all of your iteratives that round. While you still don't get a full attack, it's great for setting up sneak attacks when you don't have a flanking buddy.
Good advice
Lamontia and I do not necessarily go down this path but then again we always work to put each other in the best possible combat positions since most of the time we play together when one or both of us is not gm'ing
Feinting without any feats is pretty meh imo. Improved only helps for one attack, but if your close enough you should be full attacking anyway. Two weapon Feint allows you to get most of your attack off, but gets rid of one of the ones that would really hit. Greater Feint/improved two weapon feat looks like it gets rid of your move still, but getting your sneak attack off on all of your attacks and then allowing all of your friends to ignore his dexterity is pretty righteous(though oddly, better for a rogue's friend than a rogue).
It also keys off a skill, which can be pretty easy to raise, but has a downside in that creatures who aren't humanoids have large bonuses against it, starting with a -4, then -8, and anything without intelligence is outright immune(undead, vermin, etc.)
Feinting can be made into something great, but like every other combat maneuver it requires investment, doesn't always work, and in doing so it really eats up your resources and your chances to make your character mechanically yours outside of the feat chain. I wouldn't say its the most amazing thing, even for rogues who need sneak attack. Its quiet a bit of investment.
Edit: I should note that by the time some of these later feats come online, greater invisibility is a thing and is a really good way to get off your sneak attacks if you happen to have a party buffer in the background.
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I just hit 8th on a two-weapon feint build, and I've enjoyed it. The character won't really reach build success until 9th, as improved two-weapon feint requires a +6 BAB and improved two-weapon fighting, so I had to hold my combat trick until 8th or else delay improved two-weapon feint until 11th.
Plain old improved feint is more efficient for levels 1-8, since you don't take the two-weapon fighting penalty.
Also, I have a feeling I'll have trouble hitting with iteratives anyway, even against flat footed AC. But, being able to stand alone right in front of someone and potentially get off 5 sneak attacks (1st primary hand feint, 1st off hand attack BAB-2, haste attack BAB-2, ki attack BAB-2, primary iterative BAB-7, off hand iterative BAB-7) is pretty sweet, when it works.
A good rogue talent/ninja trick to take with this build is offensive defense, since chances are good you'll hit with at least one sneak attack each round, and since you won't be vanishing like most ninjas, you'll be a target. An extra +5 to AC against the guy you just hit helps when he actually survives the 10-20D6 worth of damage.
Don't forget you take a -4 to feint against some creatures, and another -8 against things with extremely low intelligences, so pump bluff up as much as you can. A Mask of Stony Demeanor is a cheap +5 at 500gp, though the Circlet of Persuasion applies to many more skills and still gives a +3. I also went with one of the few (two ) distracting weapons, the fighting fan. In most cases, though, that would require spending a feat, so the extra +2 probably isn't worth it.
And like all rogues/ninjas, you need a plan when you come up against an elemental or something immune to precision damage.
Mostly ninja'd by MrSin before I even submitted. With regards to greater invisibility - in terms of DPS, you'll always be better flanking or with greater invisibility. I view my ninja build differently. She's an in your face, occupy an opponent build. The point for her is to stay visible, and to pump AC high and cause opponents to waste attacks while still getting her sneak attacks off. Granted, she maxes out in the low 30s for AC right now, and at tier 8-9 that's starting to not be enough.
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A recent trick I found for getting sneak attack solo every round is to tak a dip of manuver master monk. Flurry of maneuvers will let you perform a free maneuver in addition to your full attack. Use the free maneuver to cause blindness for the round, and then unload your full attack getting sneak attack on them all.
A recent trick I found for getting sneak attack solo every round is to tak a dip of manuver master monk. Flurry of maneuvers will let you perform a free maneuver in addition to your full attack. Use the free maneuver to cause blindness for the round, and then unload your full attack getting sneak attack on them all.
Yes that's a neat trick, I have played my catfolk rogue up to level 10 doing that, starting at level 2 or 3 (not sure anymore when I took the Maneuver Master dip).
It was quite fun when it works, but later I fought so many large and huge enemies with CMDs in their 30s or higher that Dirty Trick barely landed anymore. I often needed an 18 or so to land it, and I did get Agile Maneuvers (to add Dex to it instead of Str) and Greater Dirty Trick, otherwise it would have been even more horrible.
Feint has the Advantage that it's DC is lower usually. 10+BAB+Wisdom or 10+Sense Motive. Most enemies have crappy Sense Motive and not more than 14 Wisdom.
Getting Bluff to decent levels is also much easier than to raise your CMB and can come in handy out of character.
However the Maneuver Master way has the advantage that you keep all your attacks, the Dirty Trick maneuver is completely free. Doesn't even impose a penalty on the attacks. And when it hits, they lose their Dex against everyone, cause they're blind.
I would say, if you know that you will fight mostly medium sized enemies than it's quite good. If large/huge/even bigger enemies will make a large portion of your enemies after a certain level, then consider going the Feint route. Better to sacrifice one attack and be successful than have all your attacks but miss out on sneak attack.
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Also, while two-weapon feint is feat intensive, you do end up with a couple of open feats at 5th and 7th if you're human. My progression went like this:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting
H) Combat Expertise
NT2) Finesse Rogue - Weapon Finesse
3) Two-Weapon Feint
NT4) Offensive Defense
5) Dodge
NT6) Forgotten Trick
7) Shadow Strike
NT8) Combat Trick: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9) Improved Two-Weapon Feint*
*When I finally hit 9th
So at 3rd level you realize the first level of build success, and you can almost always get one sneak attack off when you have a full round, if you can hit. Level 1 is painful without Weapon Finesse. When you are able to move into a flank, that's when you spend a Ki for an extra attack.
I might have been better served taking Weapon Focus instead of Shadow Strike,, but being able to sneak attack against concealment is vey useful, too. Either way, neither Dodge nor Shadow Strike are necessary for the build, so you do have options.
I feel a little bit like I should probably have gone ahead and taken Vanishing Trick instead of Forgotten Trick. It's useful when your AC fails, and without it, I can't take the greater invisibility master trick at 10th, which, again, wasn't the focus of the character, but it's a nice card to be able to play when you need it.