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So, I've been theory crafting a little bit (always a danger, right?) on ninja's. One of the most annoying things I've seen is the impossibility of using their poisons due to the $. So, I found a couple ways around all that, so long as it's legal, of course.
There's an item, Chalice of Poison Weeping, that allows a poison to be extracted from it's victim, right? That and the DC to resist said poison is -4. Would it be out of the question to have your druid/wizard/whatever friend beast shape III into a beast with poison, poison a guinea pig (or yourself for you animal lovers) and then use the chalice of poison weeping to suck the poison out and save it for later?
If so, since a beast's DC of it's poison is calculated from:
(DC 10 + 1/2 poisoning creature's racial HD + creature's Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text)
You could, in theory, cast bear's endurance to raise the poison's DC 2 more, and then with Serpent Belt to raise the poisons you use by even 4 more, you could, in theory, end up with a poison even better than you extracted. At what cost?
-Serpent Belt 9k
-Chalice of Poison Weeping 8k
-Beast shape III spell slot (can't get a wand...)
or
-Summon Nature's ally IV (3000 per wand)
--giant scorpion (dc 17, 6 rounds, 1d2 str)
--giant wasp (dc 18, 6 rounds, 1d2 dex)
-Bears Endurance spell or wand (1500 per wand)
+50days
After the investment of 8k for the Chalice, you are spending 90 gold for a dc 16 1d2 6 round dex poison. The nearest equivalent is the same basic poison 210 gold.
Using scrolls of beast shape III (level 1 caster, level 5 spell = 125g per scroll) to become a large octupus.
155 gold for 6 round, dc 17 1d3 str 2 saves poison. (giant octupus, didn't see any better animals with poison at higher CR's) Or, if your wizard friend has an extra level 5 slot at the end of each day it'd just be 30gp for 1 application. Still fair by all means...
Alot of the cost would be reduced by someone having an animal companion, or in some cases a familiar with poison (some GM's let the poison on Pseudodragons, and others, increase with the hit dice granted just for effects).
Anyways, the point is, am I missing something here? Or is there a way the heck round about way of making poisons viable for actual use?
You could get a venomous pet, and "milk" it from time to time. I'm not sure what the Handle Animal check DC would be though.
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I know the practice of milking takes place in the real world (I've especially seen it done with snakes), the best you would be able to do is get a giant octopus pet (requiring a dc 12+15 =27), but he's aquatic, making that difficult... The next best option is rearing a large scorpion or a large wasp, unless handle animal would allow you to domesticate a magical beast... Any thought on that?
The BEST you can do is hang around a druid with level 9 spells, he can cast Summon Elder Worm to get the mother of poisons, the purple worm. If you had more than one chalice you could get more than one poison per summon. I wonder if you could sell chaliced poisons...
Monstrous physique would allow you to gain access to medusa poison, but its the same as octopus with 1 less DC.
I haven't checked for anything good with undead anatomy, vermin shape, or plant shape. Dragon shape would have done it, but it's only for metallic and chrome dragons (no wyvern :( )
So, what is everyone's thoughts? Is this all legal?
And to clarify, the serpent belt makes your poisons better, or does it give you saves against poison? A bit ambiguous there.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Bear's endurance is only a temporary increase to your con and would not affect the poison DC by the rules.
The belt gives a save against poisons. It is just written badly. It should be errata'd.
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So, in order to get full effect, have an improved familiar and make a belt of con for it, then after 24 hours it's poisons will improve?
Would it be possible to milk a willing creature? To have it purposely pump it's poison into a vial for use later?
Or cutting up a dead one, finding it's poison glands, and squeezing the awesome fluids out into a vial?
How about milking an unwilling creature, say a captured wyvern? They do it with snakes in the real world, I wonder what the DC would be to force open the mouth of a wyvern and make it bit a squishy thing... Or do they sting? O.o
A willing creature would have to voluntarily fail the save, but it is possible, and the familiar with a belt for con should also work.
Dead creatures don't poison, or a con score, and there are no official milking rules. A GM could allow it, but that goes into GM Fiat territory.
How about milking an unwilling creature, say a captured wyvern? They do it with snakes in the real world, I wonder what the DC would be to force open the mouth of a wyvern and make it bit a squishy thing... Or do they sting? O.o
Wyvern's sting last I checked. Not too keen on the rules for making poison myself, and I'm not sure if this is cheaper than all the poison you would get in your career. Best luck I've had with poison is to be a Vishkanya and make your own, but they don't have to be a ninja.
If you are using a caster who is beast shaping, the DC of their poison equals the DC for the polymorph spell they used. So, 10 + spell level (5 for BS3) + casting Mod.
This actually could be a good thing, as they could BS to a emperor cobra snake, and give you a 1/round 6 round 1d3con poison, cure 2 saves; with the DC of a 5th level spell.
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Going along with spells causing poison effects...
If someone casts poison on someone, which reads:
"Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack. This poison deals 1d3 Constitution damage per round for 6 rounds. Poisoned creatures can make a Fortitude save each round to negate the damage and end the affliction."
Could you use the chalice to remove said poison and then bottle it? The poison created by Poisoners Jacket only lasts 1 hour. Would the same thing apply to all magically created poisons?
If not, what if someone got poisoned by the creature's whose poison you want, cast Toxic Gift to plant a harder to resist poison in someone else, and then sucked that up with the chalice to get a more desirable poison?
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In addition, can a rogue/ninja use this talent, and then hand the weapon over to someone else to use it?
Deadly Cocktail (Ex): A rogue with this talent can apply two doses of poison to a weapon at once. These can be separate poisons, in which case they both affect the target individually, or two doses of the same toxin, in which case the poisons' frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This talent is an exception to the rule that injury poisons can only be delivered one dose at a time.
Thanks for the help thus far guys! Who knows, I might as well make a guide to poison use...
No Frodo you can not use the chalice to cure someone of poison. The intent is to take poison from a creature that uses it as an attack. You are trying to get way too much out of this. :)
As for the deadly cocktrail talent the answer to that question is yes. :)
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??
CHALICE OF POISON WEEPING
Price 8,000 gp; Aura moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Weight 1 lb.
This silver chalice has stylized representations of rearing unicorns serving as handles. The bearer of the chalice can expel toxins from a poisoned creature's body, causing the target to weep the poison from its eyes and allowing the bearer to collect it in the chalice. This functions as neutralize poison on the target, eliminating that poison. If the target is immune to poison or the poison has run its course, the chalice has no effect. If the poison normally has a solid or liquid form, it collects as a single dose of the poison in the cup (regardless of how many times the target was poisoned). The collected poison has all the normal effects of the original poison, except its DC is 4 lower, and can be stored in another container or used like any other poison. The chalice can be used once per day.
I'm pretty sure I have it right...
I guess one last question still stands, should magically created poisons be able to be bottled and stored for extended periods of time?
Then, if you feel really greedy you can go into if you can sell said poisons...
Not an expert, but the only issues I see are on the prices of some of the things you've suggested using:
-Summon Nature's ally IV (3000 per wand)
Using scrolls of beast shape III (level 1 caster, level 5 spell = 125g per scroll) to become a large octupus.
Wands of Summon Nature's Ally IV cost at least 21000gp.
Scrolls of Beast Shape III cost at least 1125gp.You're making them at Caster Level 1, which is not possible. Minimum are 7th and 9th respectively. None of the magic item creation rules would allow anything lower. A lower level caster can't even create them without higher level help, as the spell must be provided for scrolls and wands.
No Frodo you can not use the chalice to cure someone of poison. The intent is to take poison from a creature that uses it as an attack. You are trying to get way too much out of this. :)
As for the deadly cocktrail talent the answer to that question is yes. :)
The chalice functions as a neutralize poison on the target. So yes, it does cure people too.
The chalice functions as a neutralize poison on the target. So yes, it does cure people too.No Frodo you can not use the chalice to cure someone of poison. The intent is to take poison from a creature that uses it as an attack. You are trying to get way too much out of this. :)
As for the deadly cocktrail talent the answer to that question is yes. :)
I missed that but it still should not pull the poison from it since that does not seem to match RAI.
edit:I was thinking about the snake belt item. The poison can be collected from a poisoned person..Now I have to go back read my other post. sigh
Going along with spells causing poison effects...
If someone casts poison on someone, which reads:
"Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack. This poison deals 1d3 Constitution damage per round for 6 rounds. Poisoned creatures can make a Fortitude save each round to negate the damage and end the affliction."
Could you use the chalice to remove said poison and then bottle it? The poison created by Poisoners Jacket only lasts 1 hour. Would the same thing apply to all magically created poisons?
If not, what if someone got poisoned by the creature's whose poison you want, cast Toxic Gift to plant a harder to resist poison in someone else, and then sucked that up with the chalice to get a more desirable poison?
My 2nd attempt this:
There is no rule for this, but I would say the poison only last as long as the spell.
The spell is instantaneous. It should work like other poisons, which is you get a fully useful dose of that poison from the target weeping it out. That poison is usable like any other poison (until delivered by a successful attack).
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Good catch on the pricing of the wands, just goes to show how really noob I am.
The serpentine bloodline is nice for poisons, if your actually a sorceress, it scales with sorceress levels :(.
Perhaps a better use of two feats (or a third) is create wondrous item/create magical arms and armor/create construct, but that requires 5 levels of a spell casting class.
But you'd get access to creating Homunculus, which for 37,000 gold you can create a 20hd construct with sleep poison (note that it doesn't have constitution, so that bonus is gone). And I think you can craft one with more than 20hd?
I wonder if they used a system at all to put prices on the poisons... I'll try putting it through a matrix... (Math and computer programming FTW!)
Too bad the poison system stands as it is, it feels... under-developed. Perhaps that was intentional. It seems alot of monsters late game are ethier immune or have a great fort save (around 20) making poisons a lot less attractive in the end.
The serpentine bloodline is nice for poisons, if your actually a sorceress, it scales with sorceress levels :(.
Why frown? It scales with a sorcerer or someone who takes eldritch heritage. I also suggested Vishkanya for a race based poison, but that's not legal for PFS and the like and my GMs don't even know they exist.
The poison system is underdeveloped in milking and creation, but it is pretty clear about how poison works I thought. Though I do wish they had less expectations on curing and the like.
would it be possible to milk a willing creature?
and
about milking an unwilling creature
are seriously testing my maturity. Had to be said.
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Oh, I didn't read exactly the heritage feat throughly, didn't realize it was your level -2 for the heritage.
The use of poisons is pretty well described, it's everything else thats annoying.
I now wonder if minor creation can create poisons...
"You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate Craft skill check to make a complex item."
Vegetable matter could include any organic compound right? Alot of today's poisons (and even the poisons we use as medications) originated as plants and alot of them are now chemically engineered. There would have to be restrictions on the type of poison made, but 1 cubic foot is plenty for many doses of poison...
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
No, minor creation can't create poisons. It doesn't say you can specify the organic compound. You get generic veggie matter. Not viper poison.
2nd, Multiple doses. "Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. Multiple doses do not alter the cure conditions of the poison, and meeting these conditions ends the affliction for all the doses."
So, if you were poisoned by wyvern poison. DC 17 6 rounds. You fail your first save, but make a save on round 2. Then you get poisoned again. The DC would increase to 19, and the duration by 3 rounds.
If you made your save on round 3, the poison would end there. If you failed, you would have to make 2 consecutive saves before round 9 to end the poison early.
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Thanks, that helps a bunch!
Now, up thread there was talk of when you use a polymorph spell to change into, lets say, a magical beast, you use different stats for the DC of it's poison.
If you are using a caster who is beast shaping, the DC of their poison equals the DC for the polymorph spell they used. So, 10 + spell level (5 for BS3) + casting Mod.This actually could be a good thing, as they could BS to a emperor cobra snake, and give you a 1/round 6 round 1d3con poison, cure 2 saves; with the DC of a 5th level spell.
Where is the mechanic found in the books? I know it's probably a good thing... with monstrous physique you could get...
Monstrous Humanoid Thriae Queen
Injury -Save Fort DC 29; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d6 Con plus staggered for 1 round; cure 2 consecutive saves.
That would be OP as all heck at any level below 20.
Thanks again for all the help guys!
~The one whose missing a finger
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Where is the mechanic found in the books?
In the Magic section under Polymorph:
The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
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If a creature you polymorph into has a +2 racial bonus to poison DC's, do you gain that bonus to your poison as well? I assume so...
Aka a a wizard with 20 int casts Monstrous Humanoid III into a creature with poison, and with the +2 racial to poison DC. His poison would look like...
DC of poison = level of spell (5) + 5 int bonus + 2 racial bonus to poisons + 10.
Or would your poison not be effected by the racial modifier of the creature you turned into?
Just double checking...
No, racial bonus to poison DC is not in the list of things any of the polymorph spells grant you, so you don't get it.
DC of the poison or other special attacks is the same as the DC would be for the spell cast to gain it.
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...so assuming that you can use the Chalice of Poison Weeping to collect a poison from a polymorphed friend (wizard, 20 Int, using Monstrous Physique III), the final DC of that poison would be 10+5+5-4 = 16.
Remember that the poison collected from a Chalice is 4 lower than the DC of the poison injected into your intermediary.
Though you'll likely end up with a DC a point or two higher since many wizards will have a 22-24 Int at level 9, considering a +4 Headband is normally affordable by then (especially if someone's got 8,000gp for a Chalice of Poison of the Day).
Don't know how your GM feels about poisons in general but I usually post this on any threads dealing with poisons.
This is a very good breakdown of formulas for different poisons. My GM capped the DC's I could make but other than that I loved it.
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Eh, alternative systems of poison making is nice... but my DM tends to go strongly favor RAW. I'd had better luck with this method than with using an alternative system.
Don't worry, didn't forget the -4 on the chalice, just simply was doing the DC of the poison on the target to be chaliced.
I guess not being able to get the poison DC too high is fair enough considering some monsters you can poly morph into look like:
Vermin, Huge. Sapphire Jellyfish Poison (Ex) Tentacle—injury; save Fort DC 23; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d4 Dex and 1d4 Con; cure 2 consecutive saves.
VERY powerful poison, it's just the initial jabbing that takes a bit to do, but since you'd be able to get quantity up there you can take advantage of lots of poison attempts. Get a second chalice and you get two poisons a day (requires too poor unfortunate bunnies though).
Too bad on the racial bonuses though. Sad face. I kinda hope Serpent's Belt gets errata soon, I really want to see if it applies to DC's of the poisons you deliver or not. If it does, that'd be downright awesomeness.
But I think all of my questions are satisfied. Thanks a bunch guys!!!