I kinda got into an argument with a player last week about how many squares a horse takes up on the map.
He said it's 2x1 squares, while I said it's 2x2.
I know 3.5 had the distinction between "Large (long)" and "Large (tall)" with 2x1 and 2x2 respectively, but I'm pretty sure they got rid of that in PF, didn't they?
I can't really find anything about it either way, probably I'm looking in the wrong place. Could someone point me to something I can show to my player, or to learn that he was actually right?
Personally I wouldn't really have a problem with 2x1 horses but then you gotta change all other animals too where that makes sense, and that seems a bit too much hassle for not really anything.
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Horses are, in fact, 2x2 creatures. Because there's no facing in this edition, a 2x1 horse doesn't make sense. Beyond that, the space a creature takes up doesn't just represent their mass, but the space they need to fight. So the 2x2 space of a horse represents the creature whirling about, biting and stomping in battle, or simply the horse charging forward, but prepared to move to the side to avoid an attack should it need.
I know 3.5 had the distinction between "Large (long)" and "Large (tall)" with 2x1 and 2x2 respectively, but I'm pretty sure they got rid of that in PF, didn't they?
The distinction still exists, but it only affects reach, not shape/footprint. A Large (tall) creature has 10' reach, while a Large (long) creature only has 5' reach.
See http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
Yep, welcome to the world of 40' wide horse drawn carriages...
You can have 10' wide horse drawn carriages with 2 horses side by side, squeezing.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
Yep, welcome to the world of 40' wide horse drawn carriages...
It would only be 40 ft wide if the entire carriage with train of horses was used in combat. And I can certainly see such a contraption requiring that amount of space to move unhindered while fighting :)
You can have 10' wide horse drawn carriages with 2 horses side by side, squeezing.
Hooray! Half-speed horse drawn carriages!
Look, I get the whole abstraction of it--that doesn't mean I can't mock the absurdity of its effects. I am totally anti-battlemap in general, though, so I'm a little biased.
If speed is an issue, you would use a smaller carriage drawn by a single row of horses instead of 2 so they aren't squeezing. Even if they are squeezing, 25 foot move speed isn't that bad for overland travel.
A carriage drawn by 2 horses side by side can have the left horse occupy the very right of its 10' square, and the right horse the very left of its 10' square. When they both have ample space on their free side, they won't need to count as if squeezing. Only when the edges of the total 20' width they take up by the rules are impeded, either by difficult terrain or actual obstacles, they'll need to lose speed.
It's pretty easy to visualize, and the conditions under which they'll need to lose speed are conditions that would have a reasonable coachman in the real world hold back his horses as well.
No need for horses to squeeze out of combat. Rules are very handily ignored when following them lends no enjoyment of the game. If forced to however, I could rock a 40 ft x 40 ft war wagon. Horses might need some buffs though.
lets all try to remember that a wagon isn't really a combat vehicle. now when you start htinking about chariots, thats when you need to start throwing rules out the window a bit.
Asta
PSY
I painted a chariot with two orcs pulled by two boars, and wanted to use it in a combat. It had a 2x4 base. I used the mounted combat feats, and handle animal in place of ride. That was the easy part. I eventually came up with a system for turning, and nailed down what the driver and spearman could and could not do.
As is typically the case, since the group didn't work together, it turned into a much larger threat than it was meant to be. The party paladin charged in and just about bit it in the second round. I was pleased however that no one simply destroyed the chariot in the first couple rounds. It sucks when a DMs hard work is all in vain because of one spell. :)