Rules questions: IUS, Grapple, Feral Combat Training, sizes and Eidolon

[upho]

The feat Feral Combat Training implies you normally cannot make use of feats such as Improved Grapple using natural weapons. So if following the normal PC creation rules, an eidolon who wants Improved (or Greater) Grapple would first need:

1 IUS
2 Weapon Focus (for whatever attack supposed to be doing the grappling)
3 Feral Combat Training

This seems to be totally independent on whether the eidolon has the Grab evolution and even whether the limb/attack in question has ever been able to make regular unarmed strikes to begin with.

However, if the eidolon has the Grab evolution and it counts as a monster ability, it seems none of these prerequisites are needed for IG (see for example the Blood Wight).

Q 1: Which set of rules should be used with the Eidolon?

Q 2: What are the prerequisites for applying IG to an eidolon's natural attack without the Grab evolution (such as a claw attack)?

In addition, according the updated Grab rules for monsters, a creature with the Grab ability can use it against any creature of its own size or smaller, while the Grab evolution text follows the outdated monster rules which requires the grabbed creature to be at least one size category smaller.

If eidolon evolutions are supposed to follow monster rules when applicable (makes the most sense, IMO), it also appears to me as if the grab evolution text should've been changed accordingly but was simply missed/forgotten.

Q 3: Is it reasonable to/should I use the updated Grab monster rules with the Grab evolution?

As a sidenote, the old eidolon sample build "Nom Beast" found in The Summoner's Handbook takes IUS and IG as first feats and gets the Grab evolution much later (with the Large evolution). It's unclear whether the eidolon was supposed to be able to apply the IG bonuses to grapple checks made before getting the Grab evolution. This build was created before FCT existed, and it seems nobody questioned that an eidolon's natural attack would benefit from IG, as long as the normal PC prerequisite IUS had also been fulfilled.

I would greatly appreciate your help and input!

[upho]

Hope the lack of replies so far doesn't mean nobody has any views/advice/help at all to offer... So here's a shameless bump with hopes of getting some attention and input from you, dear learned fellow poster!

Or were my questions simply too stupid/niche/boring/weird/incomprehensible/whatever? Please let me know if that's the case!

[soupturtle]

I think the answer is pretty simple: your initial premise is wrong. The fact that the feat feral combat training exists doesn't have any effect on how other feats work. And if you ignore the existence of feral combat training, it's pretty clear from the rules that all you need to qualify for improved grapple is improved unarmed strike.

Feral combat training lets you apply the effects of feats that require improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite to a selected natural weapon. But, what is implied (and that is implied in pretty much any ability that allows you to do something) is that it is only needed if those feats wouldn't apply to you without feral combat training. For improved grapple, that isn't the case, as there aren't any rules forbidding you to apply improved grapple to grapples made by a creature with natural attacks.

So, to answer your questions in turn:

1: To qualify for improved grapple, all you need is improved natural attack. Note however, that you're probably better off getting the grab ability.

2: There is no such thing as 'applying improved grapple to a claw attack'. Either your eidolon attacks, or he tries to grapple. Grappling presumably uses all his limbs (or as many of them as he doesn't need to stand on), not just a single natural attack form. For humanoids this is specifically called out in the rules, as they take a penalty to grapple checks if they don't have two free hands. The exception to all this is off course the grab ability, which allows you to add a grapple attempt to a succesful natural attack

3: Yes, you should. There is only one grab ability in the game. The grab evolution gives the grab ability. So you should use the latest rules on said ability. The text in the eidolon evolution is there to remind you what the grab ability does, but as that text is now outdated by the new rule, you should ignore it.