A diabolist and a paladin walk into a bar...


Advice

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What observation? Did the paladin watch the guy sign his life away and agree to be evil or something? What has the imp done? Its under the control of the diabolist anyway.

It would make more sense to show some lenience than kill someone's fun imo.

Scarab Sages

It's a freaking devil. Any paladin that is okay with a devil hanging out with him is not acting like a paladin. Does it need to come to combat? Probably not, but it might if the master keeps him out if the paladin asks him to dismiss it. Paladins are hard, and they are supposed to be hard. Which is why I would retire a paladin instead of correctly role playing him a party that includes devil summoners. I don't recommend inter-party conflict or dictating how another player plays their character. But at the same time, a paladin's code doesn't magically become easier just because that particular devil that only exist to bring tyranny and suffering into existence happens to be the pet of another player character. Paladins are toxic to groups that contain character that do things that are evil in the name of good. Unless it is a short term truce in the name of a greater good, they will not associate with evil. The imp is evil. It would be the same thing if there was a necromancer or an assassin in the group. That why its best to either retire a paladin who is Ina group with one of these character, or roll a different class from the beginning.

Trying to co-exist will either lead to inter party conflict, a fallen paladin, or a DM who hand waves the rules of being a paladin. I will not play a paladin who isn't true to his ideals. Associating with an imp is not true to being a paladin.


Imbicatus wrote:
Paladins are hard, and they are supposed to be hard.

I think that's why there's a disagreement. That's an opinion, careful about stating it without noting it is. I don't think a player deserves a rough time and to walk a field of landmines and rough decisions because of the class he picked. I don't think its the rules "magically going away" if you allow a diabolist to work with a paladin.

On the other hand, I think its a big deal if all they do is roleplay animosity and one of the players doesn't dig that. I also think if the diabolist or the paladin starts purposefully taking actions against the other(killing animal companions for instance, or if the diabolist starts sacrificing people or tempting souls) then its probably gone a little to far and that might cause conflict that doesn't need to happen. Those are based on actions however, and I don't think its inherent that the diabolist is smite bait.


Lawful stupid abounds. And people wonder why paladins get such a hard time.

The DM can easy fix the evil association, because the RAW paladin has a clause permitting it.

Like I said:

Atonement as loot. Have some NPC give the Paladin atonement in exchange for doing what the group is already doing.

Or refluff the diabolist so the Imp is a prisoner of the Law. A magically bound servant acting against his alignment. Associating with evil now becomes associating with a POW, way easier pill to swallow.

Or grant an Indulgence. Not RAW, but there's plenty of historical precedent AND a 3.5 prestige class dedicated to "not falling".

Any solution that advocates killing a PC because the two classes are incompatible is bad roleplaying and frankly uncreative.

Just because your paladin is a stubborn zealot, an unyielding bully and incapable of doing what Saranae could doesn't mean the qualities of Mercy, Redemption, Forgiveness and Tolerance can't be part of mine.

Hard Paladins give the rest of the group a bad name.

Sovereign Court

I think it's the premise for a nice spicy party dynamic. But an OOC agreement on some boundaries is important, to wit;

- The paladin's player can handle being in a party with "shady" PCs based on a Greater Enemy situation.

- The paladin accepts the imp most of the time, but the imp is definitely on probation. If the imp goes to far, the paladin will smite and the diabolist will accept it (as the cost of doing business); PCs trump companion creatures in the OOC hierarchy.

- The imp gets to try being subtly evil and trying to manipulate people, but if he goes to far the paladin will smite him and it'll be time for imp #17 to take its place. And the imp is also at risk of estrangement from hell for behaving way to LN, not meeting Evil Targets and such. The alignment sword cuts both ways.

- As a GM you'll be reasonable about the whole thing. The goal isn't to "gotcha!" the paladin; the paladin's code is a flavor instruction, not a trap. If he's straying, he'll get hints that he's in the Danger Zone before his deity pulls the plug; if he changes his ways in time everything will work out allright.

- Playing a campaign with characters who agree on a fundamental goal but embrace competing methods can be great fun. People will be pushing against each other IC, but OOC everyone is on the same side.


MrSin wrote:
What has the imp done?

Done? It's a Devil - quite literally Evil Incarnate! Destroying one, or even just banishing it, decreases the amount of Evil on this plane.

Suffering a Devil to exist is a crime against all that is Good, wholesome and puppy-eyed.

Sovereign Court

Meh. Golarion has this "better the devil you know than the demon you don't" theme running through it. At least you can make deals with devils, get them to agree to keep the evil in their pants until the demons are gone.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's kinda the point. The diabolist KNOWS he's damned to hell when he dies. But he's an Elf, and a wizard. Who says he has to die of old age, ever? He's not concerned. In addition, He sees his sacrifice worthy of the championing of the cause of law. He believes in it fervently. His goal is to conquer the denizens of hell, and bend their lawful nature to the extreme in the pursuit of absolute law on the prime material plane.

The player has decided to play a lawful good cavalier, with a LOT of paladin-esque ideals, but without the mechanical loss of his class abilities if he doesnt stick to them 100%. At the moment, the party doesnt know there is an imp, as it either stays invisible, or shows up in an animal shape. THe diabolist is polite, and claims he is simply summoning different animals (high bluff). The cavalier trusts him, but is suspicious of his summoning habits. He has cautioned the Diabolist, and objected, but the diabolist has high bluff and diplomacy and is, so far, reassuring him. If a bound devil gets out of control at some point, they may re-visit this subject.

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