Swift actions during other actions

[sidneymcdanger]

Is it possible to use a swift or immediate action between attacks? The language indicates clearly that a swift action can occur during a round in which a character takes a full round action (such as a full attack), and that a swift action may be used at any time at which a character could use a free action. Furthermore, free actions can be used "while taking another action normally." The only stated limit on free actions are those imposed by the GM. So, I posit the following situation:

A polearm master fighter archetype is equipped with a reach polearm. He is surrounded by enemies, and each of those enemies has another behind them, waiting to get into range. He has whirlwind attack and the "pole fighting" class ability, which states:

"Pole Fighting (Ex)

At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

This ability replaces Bravery."

Is the fighter allowed to use whirlwind attack to attack all enemies near him (assuming he already choked up on the weapon), then use an immediate action to return his grip to normal, then continue to make whirlwind attacks against all of the foes who are now in the reach of his weapon?

I did this build in a mid-level game once, and the GM was fine with it, but I'm curious if it was actually as legit as I thought at the time.

[Thomas Long 175]

I believe there was a ruling that you could with quickdraw, drop and draw another weapon mid full attack, also free actions, so the answer would be yes I think.

[LazarX]

As a general rule, actions can not be split. There may be specific exceptions though.

[Gauss]

Swift actions can be done any time a free action can be taken. (CRB p188)

Free actions can be taken between attacks. Thus, so can swift actions.

Immediate actions have even less restrictions, they can be done anytime, even when it is not your turn.

- Gauss

[blackbloodtroll]

Gauss has it.

You can even use a Swift action, and 5ft step, between attacks during a full attack.

[sidneymcdanger]

Haha, the ayes have it, then. That guy was super fun to play. I highly recommend it. Thanks for the confirmation!

[MC Templar]

A stern Gm could rule that your whirlwind attack is limited to the targets that were in reach when you initiated it, and changing your reach midstream doesn't change the targets that you 'could' affect when you took your full round action.

I'd probably allow it, but I could acknowledge a counter view.

[Tarantula]

MC Templar wrote:

A stern Gm could rule that your whirlwind attack is limited to the targets that were in reach when you initiated it, and changing your reach midstream doesn't change the targets that you 'could' affect when you took your full round action.

I'd probably allow it, but I could acknowledge a counter view.

I see it this way also. Whirlwind is bad enough that I would probably let someone choke-up in the middle of it, but I wouldn't blame a GM for saying you can't.

[Reecy]

I would basically say this

What they said.. Except in the case of whirlwind if you are moving you are whirling death machine and if you moved you attacked everyone in your range as you spin like a lunatic. I may lower your AC by 2 but it would he Funny to watch!

[Malachi Silverclaw]

There is no restriction within Whirlwind Attack that all your targets must be within reach at the start of your round, nor is there such a restriction for any full attack.

A melee attack must be made at a target within the reach of the weapon being used to execute that attack at the moment the attack is executed! Not before the attack, not after the attack, but as you attack.

You may not use Whirlwind Attack while pouncing, since the feat can only be used when you use the full attack action (as opposed to a full attack disassociated from the full attack action). Pouncing requires using the charge action, not the full attack action.

[Gauss]

Malachi's point of view regarding Whirlwind attack is one interpretation, others (including myself) have a different interpretation based on the fact that since Whirlwind attack specifically checks the targets at the start of the action you cannot recheck in the middle of the action. Cleave is the same way and they FAQ'd it to clarify that you cannot recheck the available targets.

Note: Full Attack has no such wording checking the available targets before initiating the action.

- Gauss

[Malachi Silverclaw]

Gauss, are you saying that there is a FAQ which says that Whirlwind Attack (specifically) checks who is within reach at the start of the turn instead of when you attack?

[Gauss]

No, I said Cleave did. The wording between Cleave and Whirlwind attack is similar when it comes to who it targets.

Cleave: "If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach."

Nothing there that does not state you cannot take a 5 foot step and then determine reach. But then the Cleave FAQ came out stating that you determine what you can reach when you first use the feat.

Now, Whirlwind attack: "When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach."

Again, nothing there that states you can or cannot take a 5 foot step and then redetermine who is within reach. However, based on the fact that Cleave determines reach to begin with (see below) I would think that any special ability feat that also first calculates who you can reach does not allow you to recalculate who you can reach later. Whirlwind attack does initially calculate who you can reach so taking a 5 foot step to bring more people into reach IS a recalculation of who you can reach.

Here is the specific sentence from the Cleave FAQ I am using for my logic: "Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action."

- Gauss

[Malachi Silverclaw]

Gauss wrote:

No, I said Cleave did. The wording between Cleave and Whirlwind attack is similar when it comes to who it targets.

Cleave: "If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach."

Nothing there that does not state you cannot take a 5 foot step and then determine reach. But then the Cleave FAQ came out stating that you determine what you can reach when you first use the feat.

Now, Whirlwind attack: "When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach."

Again, nothing there that states you can or cannot take a 5 foot step and then redetermine who is within reach. However, based on the fact that Cleave determines reach to begin with (see below) I would think that any special ability feat that also first calculates who you can reach does not allow you to recalculate who you can reach later. Whirlwind attack does initially calculate who you can reach so taking a 5 foot step to bring more people into reach IS a recalculation of who you can reach.

Here is the specific sentence from the Cleave FAQ I am using for my logic: "Cleave is a special action and the conditions for that action are checked at the moment you begin your action."

- Gauss

Hmmm...not proof, but it does support your case.

No wonder mileage varies!

Also, the feat description has no limit on the number of weapons you can use, only that each target can only be attacked once.

So, even with the 'no 5-foot step' interpretation, armour spikes and a reach weapon will allow one attack with the armour spikes at every creature within 5-feet AND one attack with the reach weapon at every target 10-feet away!

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

What if you had armor spikes? You would threaten those adjacent to you at the start of Whirlwind so you wouldn't be "adding targets." Could you use pole fighting (snicker) to attack them or would you have to use the armor spikes?

[The black raven]

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

What if you had armor spikes? You would threaten those adjacent to you at the start of Whirlwind so you wouldn't be "adding targets." Could you use pole fighting (snicker) to attack them or would you have to use the armor spikes?

Very good point there. But not all GMs are tolerant of players who lawyer the rules better than they do :-))

[blackbloodtroll]

Why would you have to choose a single weapon with Whirlwind?

All the attacks can be made with any of the weapons you threaten with.

There is nothing in the feat about a designated weapon that must be used for all the attacks.

That is just something that appears to made up, for no real reason.

[KainPen]

I would say no to the 5ft step and pole fighting with whirlwind to hit more foes because of adjusted range. Here is why because whirlwind is ONE attack that you make a separate attack roll for each target. It is not several attacks broken up during the full attack action. I don't think there are any swift actions you can do while you are rolling to confirm an attack, they all have to be done before or after the attack roll. The exception to this is Immediate actions.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Why would you have to choose a single weapon with Whirlwind?

All the attacks can be made with any of the weapons you threaten with.

There is nothing in the feat about a designated weapon that must be used for all the attacks.

That is just something that appears to made up, for no real reason.

If this is addressed to my question, I'm not saying you have to make all your attacks with one weapon (although that was always the way I thought of it until just recently). However the pole fighter is probably better with his polearm than his armor spikes.