Goblin Squad Member
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I've always thought that MMO's require enough time investment that they need to offer an extremely wide array of activities. People like to change up their gaming routine and if they can't find anything interesting to do in their current game they will find another one. But with the time investment MMO's requires finding another game means building new characters, economic resources, and connections.
Therefore a game that offers a lot of variety in activities is quite appealing. It means you can enjoy a lot of varied activities without switching games.
Unfortunately most MMO's just offer crafting and combat.
I think one great addition to PFO would be card / board / dice games in taverns. If patrons could walk in and have options to play games similar to chess and checkers or fable some coins on dice and card games similar to blackjack etc.
Playing Tavern Games On Mobile Devices
So we know there will be safe-zones and that the taverns purchased through the kickstarter will be included in them.
I suggest making it so that you can log on to a mobile app that will allow you to play tavern games in safe-zone PFO taverns with one of your offline characters. Mobile players would see a list of the tables at the tavern and could join a table with open seats or create a new game at an empty table. PFO players would actually see avatars seated around tables and could walk over and sit down to join or create a game the same way.
At that point both players could view and play the game which would only show what is happening on the table.
Many iPhone games are programmed in Unity so I'm sure this can be done.
Tavern Game Rewards
Tavern games should give some form of reward. Be it achievements, earning trophies and other items, or subtly skewing the odds so it actually EARNs you money unlike real life.
But a reward that makes people feel like they are continuing to advance their PFO career while playing chess in the doctor's office before their appointment or whatever. This will have two great benefits.
1. It will make people feel more invested in the PFO community by giving them access to it anywhere their phone gets reception.
2. It will ensure there are always opponents for PFO players wanting to find tavern games.
The introduction of gambling in online games can be problematic in some countries even if the gambling is not for real money. I am totally for the idea personally but if implemented GW may have to forgo the "money" games and concentrate on others such as chess etc. Though if two players choose to have a flutter...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seriously? Don't these politicians have better things to do with their lives than worry about people dicing for coppers in online games???
Anyway with that noted we should at least pursue games such as chess and some card games where you don't make wagers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this is a brilliant idea. We just need to make them games of skill, not chance...then it is not gambling. Also, I think one should only be able to play at the inn (or at most - settlement/kingdom) their character logged out at (with games at that inn, and with other characters also at that inn)...it should perhaps even require a monthly subscription/pay-in.
As for the sub cost, I could see a ~$5 fee monthly fee which would be included in the full ~$15 subscription.
And...of course, 0.5% of winnings go to the house which in turn pays upkeep costs for housing games.
Even if games of pure skill some countries outlaw gambling cross border Kitnyx. Sad but true.
doesn't matter Decius its still classed as gambling in some places this is why mmo's dont do it generally
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this is a brilliant idea. We just need to make them games of skill, not chance...then it is not gambling. Also, I think one should only be able to play at the inn (or at most - settlement/kingdom) their character logged out at (with games at that inn, and with other characters also at that inn)...it should perhaps even require a monthly subscription/pay-in.
As for the sub cost, I could see a ~$5 fee monthly fee which would be included in the full ~$15 subscription.
And...of course, 0.5% of winnings go to the house which in turn pays upkeep costs for housing games.
For immersion reasons I fully agree with you that it should be the tavern you logged out at but for other reasons I disagree.
Imagine if you forget you log out at a tavern the day before your big vacation, and thus can't play any tavern games while sitting alone in the airport at both ends of the trip.
I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that your character walked to the nearest safe in, and walked back when they were done. Or even to allow them to pick what inn they want to walk to.
Sure if they did that in-game it would present time and dangers, but it's not like you are walking there with an inventory full of valuable goods. All it allows you to do is play tavern games.
If it comes with a subscription fee then it should be the regular premium fee for PFO. Having this be a successful feature hinges on opponents to play it with, and as such you want it pretty widely available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally while I greatly like the idea of tavern games, chess clones, card games etc... I oppose the idea of them being a faucet. I have no problem with them transferring in game wealth, in game trophies, "achievements" etc... I have no problem with. I just find the idea of creating it a minefield... and a haven for bot type activities, doubly so when you add in the mobile apps concept.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally while I greatly like the idea of tavern games, chess clones, card games etc... I oppose the idea of them being a faucet. I have no problem with them transferring in game wealth, in game trophies, "achievements" etc... I have no problem with. I just find the idea of creating it a minefield... and a haven for bot type activities, doubly so when you add in the mobile apps concept.
I can see that. Though I was thinking more along the line of you play games for five hours at a tavern and get the kind of money you would make hunting weak wolves for pelts for an hour.
One good example I'd like to throw out there though is the Fable series. I remember in Fable you got unique items (Dolls if I remember right) for achieving certain scores in tavern games.
How would you feel if NPC run taverns in the starter zones offered unique trophies, cosmetic items, etc. for winning tournaments and achieving high scores in some games, and player run taverns had the option of offering whatever kind of rewards they chose?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally while I greatly like the idea of tavern games, chess clones, card games etc... I oppose the idea of them being a faucet. I have no problem with them transferring in game wealth, in game trophies, "achievements" etc... I have no problem with. I just find the idea of creating it a minefield... and a haven for bot type activities, doubly so when you add in the mobile apps concept.
Good points, I did not even consider the fact some might see them as a magic money maker. I thought everything would come from players....players would even have to "create and hold open" instances of a game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You would probably be safe on the basis that in-game coin has neither value nor ownership.
Giving coin value has all kinds of wonky tax consequences.
This is actually irrelevant. Goblinworks is taking in money, and providing gambling. Whether the gambling occurs with cash-value items or not is of no impact legally (at least in the US). The fact that there is an implicit connection between coin and cash (via goblin balls and the rest of the cash shop) certainly doesn't help matters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, FB Zynga games are illegal gambling?
Apparently so are all of the gambling games in Puzzle Pirates (which is kind of an MMO).
I always thought that the reason most MMOs didn't like gambling is that they didn't like the way big piles of cash got quickly swapped around. Gold selling can be hidden pretty well in a high stakes poker game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A selected quote:
"MMORPG LAW
-The Wild West or a New World Order?-
By: Lawrence G. Walters
Weston, Garrou, DeWitt & Walters]Virtual Gambling
Second Life, along with most other MMORPG’s, allows players to gamble in online currency, but is dependent upon the use of credit card transactions for a variety of purposes. In October, the U.S. Congress passed the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act, essentially banning the exchange of American currency for purposes of online gambling. [15] Luckily, in Second Life players exchange Sims, not dollars. Yet, online transactions in real world dollars are required for the trade of virtual objects, so the current law may be found to affect the financial activities of MMORPG’s as well. In fact, the creators of Second Life are concerned with the potential applicability of the new law to players’ gambling activity, and have issued some legal policy statements on the issue. [16] Although Congress was not directly addressing MMORPG’s by passing the Internet gambling law, it may not be long before gambling in virtual worlds is targeted."
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Goblin Squad Member
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A selected quote:
"MMORPG LAW
-The Wild West or a New World Order?-
By: Lawrence G. Walters
Weston, Garrou, DeWitt & Walters]Virtual GamblingSecond Life <snip>"
The problem Second Life runs into is that people can get the money they've won back out and into real currency again. That means that their virtual currency equates to nothing more than poker chips. Other games where you cannot bring your money back out again don't necessarily run that risk, because any gains someone makes cannot be converted into real money. Thus, while you may be "gambling", you are doing nothing more than feeding coins into an arcade machine which cannot give a payout.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a somewhat related subject do any of you know of any games that already exist in the Pathfinder universe, or will this require building Pathfinder based games from the ground up?
Towers which uses a Harrow deck (essentially Pathfinder Tarot).
However, I'm sure you could throw together some dice games or other card games based on Harrow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a somewhat related subject do any of you know of any games that already exist in the Pathfinder universe, or will this require building Pathfinder based games from the ground up?
The first module of the Second Darkness adventure gives us Bounder (a hi-low dice game), Ghoulette (similar to roulette, based on the insults of a magically animated head), Golem (a five card draw analogue), and Skiffs (which is way more complicated than I feel like summarizing)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm all for there being in game tavern games, but I think that should be in-game only. Putting aside the gambling issue that some countries or individual states (USA) have with online gambling. I know that Cryptic / Perfect World had issues with lock boxes in Germany.
The other issue is, if it is allowed for a character to be in game for the sole purpose of gambling, how would this not be the equivalent of bottling?
How can they be in the world, participating in the economy, and yet not in the world to be fully interacted with?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sure, its called playing with friends in a G+ Hangout. What's the difference?Munchkin?There's an electronic version of Munchkin somewhere? Interesting. I keep hoping SJG will make an iOS version.
You're not paying Google for the Hangout. The Hangout is not providing any of the mechanisms involved in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, as convoluted as some of the payment exchange "proof of gambling" have been above, you do technically insure Google gets paid with your clicks...G+ and even Hangouts are part of a single business plan...intended to insure we make those clicks. And we polis even provide the money to make that payment via our consuming branded goods.
I have no qualms with allowing GW to provide a toolset and allowing us to design and run games...good ones will evolve out of the chaos.
But, it is definitely not part of a minimally viable product.