Stacking multipliers: "Deal double damage" vs "take double damage"

[Tophyr]

So, we all know the rule when you deal double damage twice: rather than 2 x 2 = 4x, it's base damage + twice your base damage again, for a total of 3x.

But what about when you deal double damage, and something else takes double damage? For instance, the Litany of Righteousness spell states:

Litany of Righteousness wrote:

If the target is evil, it takes double damage from attacks made by creatures with a good aura.

So, if this spell is affecting a creature, and I crit that creature, how much damage do I do?

I would assume that there is a difference between "damage dealt" and "damage taken." Just like when factoring DR, you total your damage to be dealt, then the target figures out how much of that damage it takes. Therefore I would say that if you have a 2x crit, you double your damage, give the total to the target affected by Litany of Righteousness, and then the target doubles that number for a true 4x multiplier.

Has there been any official statement on this one way or another? It makes sense that it would work like an energy vulnerability, in which you figure up the damage, and the target takes half again. Then again, is that how crits with energy damage vs an energy vulnerability work, or have I been assuming that as well? If that's how it works, Litany of Righteousness with some keen falcatas would be a pretty devastating combo.

[Bill Dunn]

Page 12 of the Core Rulebook states:

Quote:

Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.

[Kazaan]

I'd say you're a go. The spell simply states the target takes double the damage dealt. This would, presumably, double both base weapon damage and any critical damage applied (it doesn't limit precision damage or extra damage dice). So it's not doubling the dice but, rather, doubling the result of the dice. Instead of doubling 1d8 to 2d8, it's doubling the result you rolled; say you rolled a 5 on 1d8, you double it to a 10 rather than rolling another 1d8. So factoring on damage dealt and damage taken are handled independently. For example:

1d8 damage w/ Vital Strike and x2 crit would net you 3d8 damage (2x + 2x = 3x). If the target was subject to LoR, you'd double the 3d8 and get 2x(3d8). If the target had two separate effects that doubled "damage taken", from the net 3d8 damage "dealt", you'd get 3x(3d8 damage (as opposed to 4x(3d8)).

[WRoy]

Tophyr wrote:

I would assume that there is a difference between "damage dealt" and "damage taken."

Damage is damage. Unless a damage modifier explicitly states that it doesn't follow the standard multiplier rules, it follows the rules as Bill Dunn posted.

[Chemlak]

So, critical hit from a Scorching Ray vs a creature vulnerable to fire takes... How much?

[Kazaan]

There's a difference between doubling your damage dice and doubling the result of your damage dice. In the case of Critical Hits, Vital Strike, or any other effect that would double your damage dealt, it allows you to roll additional dice. You don't just roll 5 on a 1d8 and call it 10, you actually roll 2 d8s and add up the rolls. In the case of damage taken, you're doubling the actual result of the dice rolls. You do take the 1d8, roll a 5, and double it to 10. That's a completely different animal. So, no, "damage is damage" is an incorrect analysis of the matter.

[David knott 242]

WRoy wrote:

Tophyr wrote:

I would assume that there is a difference between "damage dealt" and "damage taken."

Damage is damage. Unless a damage modifier explicitly states that it doesn't follow the standard multiplier rules, it follows the rules as Bill Dunn posted.

I am not so sure about that. A player character has an ability that doubles the damage he inflicts. He rolls the damage, doubles it, and then announces the total to the DM. The DM knows that the creature takes double damage from that source. Does he double it again, or does he ask the player what the undoubled damage was so that he can calculate the full damage taken? If both doublings were being made by the one that inflicted the damage, there is no question that the base damage would be tripled rather than quadrupled, but is that also true if the second doubling is a vulnerability of the target and not a power of the attacker?

[Tophyr]

Bill Dunn wrote:

Page 12 of the Core Rulebook states:

Quote:

Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.

Sure does, but you're not asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll in this case. You're rolling your damage total with just your single crit multiplier, and announcing the total to the target. It then falls on the target to figure out whether he decreases that total (DR), adds half again (vulnerability), or doubles it (LoR).

Kazaan wrote:

1d8 damage w/ Vital Strike and x2 crit would net you 3d8 damage (2x + 2x = 3x). If the target was subject to LoR, you'd double the 3d8 and get 2x(3d8). If the target had two separate effects that doubled "damage taken", from the net 3d8 damage "dealt", you'd get 3x(3d8 damage (as opposed to 4x(3d8)).

I would agree with you, but I think the important thing to note is that that formula is NOT calculated solely by the attacker. Using your example, if the attacker had normal damage of 1d8+5, on a vital strike crit (x2), he would roll 3d8 and add his +10 bonus damage. Say he gets an 11 with the roll, for a total of 21. This total would be given to the target, and the target would double it due to LoR and take 42 damage. Just to clarify, the damage of 21 is the resolved value; dice are not rolled again to double the effect; however, the target must take double the resolved total.

[Kazaan]

David knott 242 wrote:

...He rolls the damage, doubles it, and then announces the total to the DM...

That's not how it works. If you double your damage dice, you roll twice. You don't just roll once and double the value, you actually roll two separate (sets of) dice and total the values. If your normal damage is 1d8 and you crit for double, you roll two d8s, say one comes up 7 and the other comes up 3. The total is 10. You don't just roll one, it comes up 7, and you say 14.

[Kazaan]

Tophyr wrote:

Just to clarify, the damage of 21 is the resolved value; dice are not rolled again to double the effect; however, the target must take double the resolved total.

That's precisely what I said. You deal 2x(3d8) damage (meaning you roll 3d8 and multiply the result by 2) and not 6d8 damage.