Duelist help?

[ComradeQuestion]

Currently working on a Duelist for a high level game (starting at 14) My stat rolls were decent 17/16/14/14/8/13

Trying to decide between going 6 fighter/8 duelist or 8 magus/6 duelist

Rogue seems pointless as sneak attacks are pretty weak without TWF. I am limited to PHB/APG/UM/UC as far as source books go, so no pirahna strike or dervish dance.

Any thoughts? I currently have the following

Elf
Str: 20
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 13

Feats are
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Mobility
5. Dodge
7. Power Attack
9. Improved Trip
11. Improved initiative

Going rapier as far as weapons go, its really the only choice I have. Armor Bracers and probably a dex/str belt Not sure what else to look into.

Thanks in advance.

[Imbicatus]

Rapier may not be the best weapon option. If you used a Cestus and went Brawler fighter 7 before going duelist, your cestus attacks would have +3 to hit/+8 damage from specialization and Close Combatant. Menacing stance will give anyone next to you a -1 to hit and -4 to concentration checks which stack nicely with your duelist canny defense. Cestus, being a B/P weapon qualifies for Duelist class abilities.

[Reecy]

If I were you, I would do a Fighter 9/Duelist 5

This gives you weapon training 2 so you get a free +2 to one weapon set and a +1 to additional weapon Set, Extra feats, And it still gets you to riposte. Your extra benefits start to fade when you exceed your INT also simply because you don't get the extra Damage... Another Issue is Your dex Modifier will go up 2 twice in lighter Armor in case you exceed 4 and the check penalty goes down further.

[SunsetPsychosis]

Honestly, the Duelist class isn't that great. Assuming you're trying to get the thematic of a duelist, I recommend

Elf Fighter (Swordlord)

1 : Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dueling Sword)
1b: Weapon Finesse
2b: Weapon Focus (Dueling Sword)
3 : Improved Unarmed Strike
4b: Quick Draw
5 : Aldori Dueling Mastery
6b: Dodge
7 : Crane Style
8b: Crane Wing
9 : Crane Riposte
10b: Combat Expertise
11: Improved Disarm
12b: Improved Trip
13: Combat Reflexes
14b: Fury's Fall

This combination allows you to have an extremely high AC, the ability to deflect the attack of someone trying to hit you and smacking them for it, the ability to smack someone who DOES hit you (up to Dex times a round), and the ability to trip and disarm (and dealing damage when you do disarm)

[carn]

ComradeQuestion wrote:

Str: 20

Duelist relies heavily on not losing dx bonus, so improved uncanny dodge is useful and duelist doesnt wear heavy armor anyway -> barbarian or if wild rage does not fit thematically, urban barbarian can get "rage", that does not limit use of abilities.

And isnt the agile weapon property allowed? Then you could dumb str if you invest 1500 GP for additional mules cord enchantment for neck slot. That would work especially with urban barb, as urban barb can rage to get dx bonus.

[Reecy]

I thought I read on the forum the downside for using Dex for Damage is that it does not stack in a crit or is that only 2 handed weapons?

[carn]

crane style could be great in the long run, though its 4 feats to get, it has great synergy with level 7 duelist ability, gaining for a -1 to attack a +5 dodge to AC plus one melee attack negated per round. That especially means that AOOs from movement can be ignored due to additional +8 from duelist and mobility.

[Guy Kilmore]

A dip into Monk can be useful, two levels of Master of Manystyles can net you two parts of a style feat path, which lets you snag Crane Style line which is nice for a singleton fighter, also look at the Snake Style line for some fun. It also gives you a boost to your saves and you can snag evasion and unarmed strike. (Duelists always want a free hand)

The Master of Many Styles can also be paired with Sohei (Get +1 to intiative and the ability to act in a surprise round) Or with Sacred Mountain (+1 to Natural Armor, Toughness in exchange for evasion).

There are some other monk styles that can blend well, but that is my favorite combo.

In regards to Agile/Dex for damage. The downside to the Agile enchant is that it only works for the weapon you enchant (Meaning not wielding that weapon, not getting that damage). It also takes up one of the possible pluses for enchanting, I believe, could be wrong about this. It can not be used to get 1.5times your ability bonus in damage if the weapon is wielded two handed. This doesn't matter if you are using a rapier because a rapier doesn't let you do it anyways. It is counted in crits and all that other stuff.

I would also go fighter with the Monk Dip. Look at the Cad or Free Handed fighter archetypes for added flavor and fun.

[Guy Kilmore]

SunsetPsychosis wrote:

Honestly, the Duelist class isn't that great. Assuming you're trying to get the thematic of a duelist, I recommend

Elf Fighter (Swordlord)

1 : Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dueling Sword)
1b: Weapon Finesse
2b: Weapon Focus (Dueling Sword)
3 : Improved Unarmed Strike
4b: Quick Draw
5 : Aldori Dueling Mastery
6b: Dodge
7 : Crane Style
8b: Crane Wing
9 : Crane Riposte
10b: Combat Expertise
11: Improved Disarm
12b: Improved Trip
13: Combat Reflexes
14b: Fury's Fall

This combination allows you to have an extremely high AC, the ability to deflect the attack of someone trying to hit you and smacking them for it, the ability to smack someone who DOES hit you (up to Dex times a round), and the ability to trip and disarm (and dealing damage when you do disarm)

Couldn't he also go Fighter (Swordlord) then take levels in the PRC Aldori Sworldlord? The advantage is by taking at least one level in the Aldori Swordlord you get to add Dex to damage with any Aldori Dueling Sword and you get Aldori Dueling Mastery as a bonus feat. (But getting Dex to damage with an Aldori Dueling Sword is seen by some as a little bit of a trap because you are giving up the ability to use it two handed. I am fine with it, but someone else may not be.)

[ComradeQuestion]

Agile isn't allowed, as it's from one of the setting books. Thanks for the help though, I think I have a better idea of what I'm gonna do now.

[SunsetPsychosis]

I'm not sold on the Swordlord PRC, as it requires Dazzling Display to get in. Though I suppose it saves you a feat in the end, since you get Dueling Mastery as a bonus without needing to get Quick Draw (not that Quick Draw is a bad thing to have). A one level dip isn't a bad idea, but otherwise stick for straight Fighter progression.

[carn]

ComradeQuestion wrote:

Agile isn't allowed, as it's from one of the setting books. Thanks for the help though, I think I have a better idea of what I'm gonna do now.

Without agile and without dervish dance i think duelist is too weak compared to other clases. If one has only 1 weapon and decent str, then it should be a two-handed weapon. Duelist uses 1 handed, but gains +10 precision damage. The 1.5 str bonus with two handed would give +2-4 and the additional power attack effect is +2-5, with the additional advantage of no wasted feat for weapon finesse and more higher level class abilities.