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I just participated in a game where the GM didn't wanted to kill PCs - but used non-lethal coup-de-grace to knock out high level characters.
Is this even possible.
It would have made a lot of a difference in this case if the monsters had to slowly hit them down to unconsciousness as an invisible wizard still was able to act - but this way was denied any buffing / healing as he had to act immediately and couldn't delay.
Wait, your complaining the GM didn't TPK?
Well, since the characters had to be "helpless" before you can even try to use Coup de Grace on them, I'm not sure the benefit. Maybe, if they're held with a Hold Person spell, or something like that, then I could see trying to use a Coup to keep them down and out. Otherwise, Coups are usually used on targets who are already sleeping or unconscious, so there is little reason to use it to "knock out" high level characters.
That said, you have to use a melee weapon, but those can always be used to deliver non-lethal damage if you take a penalty on the attack roll, and since there is no attack roll on a Coup, the penalty doesn't matter. I see no rules that say the damage MUST be lethal, so it seems that this should be allowed.
If the attack more non-lethal damage than the victim's max HP, the rest of the damage would still be lethal
It seems that if they take non-lethal damage but they haven't taken enough lethal damage to die, then there should be no save to avoid dying. It also seems like there should be no need to replace that with a save to avoid being knocked unconscious since that is what non-lethal damage does anyway - do enough to equal or exceed their current HP and they're unconscious, no save required. Both of these points are not RAW and they could be argued either way, so ultimately this is up to the GM, but if he is able to make a deadly attack and kill the PC but chooses to let the PC live, I wouldn't argue too hard - he might start killing them instead.
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The non-lethal Coup-de Grace was used to incapacitate characters quickly without killing them.
There was still one non-helpless character - invisible. This allowed to incapacitate them more quickly - forcing the invisible character to come out of invisibility instead buffing / healing himself before taking on three enemies on his own.
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The problem of non-lethal coup de grace from realism is, that knocking someone unconcious with one blow only works by applying force to the brain. If too litle force is used, no knock-out, if too much force is used, heavy injury or death.
That problem does not exist with a lethal coupe de grace, the more the better.
Hence, non-lethal coup de grace should be in some way more difficult than lethal one.
Roll the damage for the auto hit. Apply as non-lethal until equal to current HP. Apply the rest as lethal. Then, if lethal was applied, do the fortitude save using only the lethal as the modifier. This seems to fit with the rules and models the chance of accidentally killing someone by hitting them in this way.
I like that Brock! Good call.
Could still "accidentally" kill someone, but it will be harder to pull off.
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I think that the above is how I would run it for PFS.
For a home game, where I can be more flexible with the rules, I think that I would remove the base '10' from the fortitude save. Even with only a couple of points of lethal damage, that's still a worrying save for a low level character. So 5 points of 'overkill' would only be a DC 5 Fort save.
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This was a PFS game. So I'm mainly interested what the rules say - not how as a GM to handle it in a free game.
So far it seems non lethal Coup-de grace doesn't exist - at least you still need fortitude checks to avoid being outright killed in the attempt.
The way it was used: Full round action to deal non-lethal damage equivalent to the HP of the character. This was more !! HP as possible with a critical.
Options:
Morning Star: 1d8+3
2 Talons: 1d6+1
(Longbow: 1d11+11)
The enemy wanted the characters down as quickly as possible but would not have wanted to endanger their lives as they needed at least one left for ransom.
They went from 80+ to 0(-1?) in a single round. 'Combat' was still ongoing (an invisible wizard able to cast but forced to act more quickly in this case).
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This was a PFS game. So I'm mainly interested what the rules say - not how as a GM to handle it in a free game.
So far it seems non lethal Coup-de grace doesn't exist - at least you still need fortitude checks to avoid being outright killed in the attempt.
The way it was used: Full round action to deal non-lethal damage equivalent to the HP of the character. This was more !! HP as possible with a critical.
Options:
Morning Star: 1d8+3
2 Talons: 1d6+1
(Longbow: 1d11+11)The enemy wanted the characters down as quickly as possible but would not have wanted to endanger their lives as they needed at least one left for ransom.
They went from 80+ to 0(-1?) in a single round. 'Combat' was still ongoing (an invisible wizard able to cast but forced to act more quickly in this case).
So, it maybe should have been about 5 rounds of attacks, possibly with DC roughly 25 Fort saves to avoid dying each round, and certainly once lethal damage was taken on the last strike.
On the other hand, it looks like the GM made up a rule on the fly to cover a situation that isn't explicitly covered in the rules - which is allowed.
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Would you be happier if the GM threw up his hands in frustration, and just regular CdG'ed one PC per round so that he could subdue the last one at leisure?
It's not a question of happier, it's a question of what is the correct rule for this situation. As Thod mentioned above, if it had taken longer to subdue the rest of the party, the invisible person would have had more chance to act.
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Uh RAW I'd say yes you can CDG for non lethal damage however since CDG doesn't specify that when you take the fort save it's only lethal damage that applies you'd have to take the fort save vs the damage dealt with the non lethal anyways so chances of not killing your target are still low.
EDIT: Although a case could be made for nonlethal damage not being true damage for the purposes of the save thus reducing it to only a DC10 fort save for each hit although that could still result in death.
In this case CDG would taken even longer.
Full attack:
1d8 +3
1d6 +1 (*2)
average 14.5 HP damage
CDG:
2d8 + 6 (if you take the mace)
2d6 + 2 (if you take talons)
You wouldn't go down from 80+ to unconscious in a single blow. The invisible wizard possessed several items / spells that could be used if given time (Wand of Shield, Wand CLW, Pearl of power 1st level to regain vanish, Pearl of Power 2nd level to regain Mirror Image or Invisibility, Deep Pockets - retrieve any reasonable items up to 100gp value, interposing hand spell, summon monster I, haste, resilient sphere).
You could argue that the interposing hand spell would give away my location even if invisible - so I didn't went for that early on. But I had to take down at least one before all comrades were down.
...wait, CdG is mechanically a Crit, right? I was sure that you couldn't crit with non lethal damage...I must be horribly mistaken.
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Nothing here that says "lethal only". Non-lethal damage still doubles on a crit; if the defender survives, he still has to make a Fort save (DC 10 + damage dealt (non-lethal damage is still damage)) or die.
So, RAW, the Coup de Gras, even if they were non-lethal, likely shouldn't have knocked the party out. More likely the rest of the party would be rolling new characters and your Wizard would have been lucky to escape with his life.
RAW blindmage has it right. You can CdG for non-lethal, but they still save vs damage dealt. Most would fail the save and die.
Reecy, you are wrong. You can die from non-lethal damage, here is the rules quote.
Nonlethal Damage
Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest.
Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage: You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage: You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Staggered and Unconscious: When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.
When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.
Spellcasters who fall unconscious retain any spellcasting ability they had before going unconscious.
If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.
Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
The problem of non-lethal coup de grace from realism is, that knocking someone unconcious with one blow only works by applying force to the brain. If too litle force is used, no knock-out, if too much force is used, heavy injury or death.
That problem does not exist with a lethal coupe de grace, the more the better.
Hence, non-lethal coup de grace should be in some way more difficult than lethal one.
In a game of dragons, magic, elves, dimensional portals, demons and such ... you're concerned about realism?
And I'd definitely houserule out the 'nonlethal damage becomes lethal' clause, myself. I'd rather mercy not be all that difficult.
I just participated in a game where the GM didn't wanted to kill PCs - but used non-lethal coup-de-grace to knock out high level characters.
So all the characters in the party with the exeption of the invisible one were already helpless? Why did he even bother?
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I just participated in a game where the GM didn't wanted to kill PCs - but used non-lethal coup-de-grace to knock out high level characters.So all the characters in the party with the exeption of the invisible one were already helpless? Why did he even bother?
Because the invisible one was still a thread. The harpies started to attack (3 attacks - lethal - but that was on a companion and did <half HP of the companion).
We had 2 dwarf rangers and 1 human ranger - all >100 HP - so that would take a while.
An invisible wizard - given a few extra rounds time - is much more dangerous as a non prepared one.
The coup-de-grace started after the wizard cast Mirror Image while invisible to start buffing and preparing himself and checking how long his comrades could withstand being battered aka how much time he had to prepare.
Yep - shouldn't have asked for HP - that was meta-gaming. But hey - stuff happens.
And yes - the Coup-de Grace on the companion dropped me straight out of my first invisibility - the non-lethal Coup-de Grace on the characters forced me to actions getting out of my second one.
Interesting question how Mirror image and invisibility interact when both are cast (and in which order) - but I checked at the table if this was okay - otherwise I would have done something different.
Yes - hit, run, hide, heal - repeat is maybe a cowardly tactic. But hey - it was the last strategy left. And the enemies already had suffered an initial onslaught of Fireball and a volley or arrows (before the rangers became helpless).
But the strategy depends on how much time is given to you.
Unfortunately trapping them in Black Tentacles didn't kept them long enough. They broke free in their first round.
But once again I do the mistake to mix rules questions with motivations. The WHY shouldn't matter.
How were all the other PC's and companion helpless already?
From the attacks, they were hit by Harpy's Captivating Song.
Unfortunately, that does not make a character helpless - they simply stand and take any attacks. That makes the whole original post moot.
I had to deal with non-lethal 'death' a lot with an epic game, where the Barbarian had Devastating Critical (Fort Save or die on a crit) with a merciful weapon. I have it deal non-lethal equal to current hp + con score. I think that's a very legitimate interpretation, but certainly I haven't seen any rules for dealing coup-de-grace with a sap, etc.
A middle-ground ruling would be that you can only do this with a weapon that normally deals non-lethal (similar to the restriction on sneak attack).
Either way, the GM thought he could simply have killed all the PCs, and chose not to. The original mistake on being helpless aside, that was generous.
Knocking someone out with a really solid shot is a pretty heavy staple if not an actual trope. And it's probably realistic, too.
I don't see the issue. Enemy is vulnerable to a coup de grace...you give an extra hard knock out blow.... You *can* crit with a nonlethal weapon, after all. And that's what a coup de grace mostly is, an auto hit crit. It just also has that save vs. death, which obviously wouldn't apply for a nonlethal strike.