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Hello All,
An interesting issue came up the other night during our session when an NPC was stuck in a hallway between 2 players. The NPC, who was a Wizard and wanted to get away. The hallway was blocked and the NPC had an Invisibility spell to cast. On one side was a rather large Barbarian. The other, a much smaller female sorcerer. The NPC though about barging but was an elderly man himself, but thought it best to try slipping past the sorcerer.
The NPC cast defensively, and turned invisible. Now the PCs knew the NPC was there, and I was not sure how to run it.
This is what I did:
The NPC, having cast the spell, had to make a Combat Maneuver check against the CMD of the sorcerer, but as the sorcerer couldn't see him (and basing it on the fact that when a character with invisibility attacks someone, the target is denied their dexterity), used the CMD minus the PCs DEX bonus. Failure meant the NPC stopped moving, and it was back to 50% miss chance from the PCs.
Thoughts, or did I botch it?
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Acrobatics:
Move through an enemy's space 5 + opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense
I would reduce the CMD of the target removing his dexterity modifiers (he can't see the tumbling character, so his dexterity is denied) and give a further +2 to the tumbling wizard [all based on this: An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)].
It would still be very difficult for a wizard that probably has no ranks in Acrobatics.
The CMB vs CMD approach work too, but it has the problem that it is an attack, and so the wizard would become visible after his attempt to overrun the sorceress.
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Did I say Combat Maneuver check. I meant Acrobatics vs CMD+7 (+2 for the additional target that was behind him, and +5 for going through the same square). And with the Wizards +1 Acrobatics, it was near impossible.
Yes the Wizard didn't want to attack.
Also, because he was invisible, does he even provoke? Or would that be a Perception check versus his stealth (with a +10 for being invisible).
Invisible creatures do not provoke.
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More generally, creatures with concealment or cover do not provoke.
Cover prevents ApPs yes, concealment doesn't though. So technicallyan invisible character does provoke I believe. E.g. an invisible opponent is in front of you and starts casting a spell with verbal components, you should be able to make an AoO.
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Total Concealment
If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
Edit: Ninja'd
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OK, so here are a few rules, which sometimes I wish would just out-and-out say what they mean. Here goes:
TOTAL CONCEALMENT (Extract)
"You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies."
EDIT: Totally concealed means no AoO. But is an invisible creature totally concealed? Lets explore.
INVISIBILITY (Spell) (Extract)
"The creature or object touched becomes invisible."
EDIT: Not much there. Lets check the rule's definition of Invisible.
INVISIBLE (Definition)
"Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities."
EDIT: Still noting about having Total Concealment. So lets check the Invisibility special ability for an answer.
INVISIBILITY (Special Ability) (Extract)
"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)."
EDIT: I'm going to guess that its a DC 0 to spot someone in front of you, hence the DC 20 to spot a moving invisible creature in front of you (or DC 40 if its standing still). But at no stage does it say anywhere that I can find that an invisible creature has total concealment.
I'll also include this, as its important:
ACROBATICS (Extract)
"If you attempt to move though an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity."
Therefore, the scenario I first posted would occur like this:
SCENE: A corridor. A wizard (NPC) stands between his enemies namely a Barbarian (PC) and a Sorcerer (PC). The Wizard is blocked. In the Wizards turn (mid combat so flat footed does not apply). As a standard action, the Wizard casts the spell Invisibility defensively, succeeds, and turns invisible. The Wizard means to escape this most precarious of positions, and has chosen to exit through the Sorcerer's square. The Wizards move action is to move past the Sorcerer.
RULES: As the Wizard begins to move, the Barbarian and the Sorcerer make Perception checks at DC 20 (as the Wizard is invisible and moving). If they make them, they are able to make attacks of opportunity against the Wizard. As a result, the Wizard will need to make an Acrobatics check.
BARBARIAN: If the Barbarian is aware of the presence of the Wizard, the Wizard would need to make an Acrobatics check with a DC of the Barbarian's CMD+2 (the +2 for being for the second person adjacent to the Wizard - i.e. the Sorcerer). However, the Barbarian will also be affected by the 50% miss chance. If the Barbarian is not aware of the target, he does not make an attack of opportunity, nor does he provoke, and thus does not provide a +2 as an additional adjacent opponent.
SORCERER: If the Sorcerer is aware of the presence of the Wizard, the Wizard would need to make an Acrobatics check with a DC of the Sorcerer's CMD+7 (the +2 for being for the second person adjacent to the Wizard - i.e. the Barbarian AND +5 and the Wizard is going "through" the Sorcerer's occupied square). However, the Sorcerer will also be affected by the 50% miss chance. If the Sorcerer is not aware of the target, she does not get to make an attack of opportunity, nor does she provoke, and thus does not provide an additional +2 for being an adjacent opponent.
WIZARD: If the Wizard wants to avoid being hit, the following may occur:
1) If the Barbarian and the Sorcerer are unaware of him, the Wizard may move without hindrance.
2) If the Barbarian is aware, but the Sorcerer is not, the Wizard must make an Acrobatics check with the DC being the Barbarian's CMD in order to avoid provoking an Attack of Opportunity as he moves away. If the the Wizard fails, he stops moving and the Attack of Opportunity occurs with a 50% miss chance applying to the Barbarian's attack.
3) If the Sorcerer is aware, but the Barbarian is not, the Wizard must make an Acrobatics check with the DC being the Sorcerer's CMD+5 (with the +5 being that the Wizard has to move through the Sorcerer's square) in order to avoid provoking an Attack of Opportunity as he moves. If the the Wizard fails, he stops moving and the Attack of Opportunity occurs from the Sorcerer, with a 50% miss chance applying to the Sorcerer's attack.
4) If both the Barbarian and the Sorcerer are aware, the Wizard must make an Acrobatics check with the DC being higher than both the Sorcerer's CMD+7 (+5 from going through the Sorcerer's square AND +2 being that the Barbarian is adjacent to the Wizard as well) and the Barbarian's CMD+2 (+2 being that the Sorcerer is adjacent to the Wizard as well). If the the Wizard fails, he stops moving, both the Sorcerer and the Barbarian make Attacks of Opportunity, but both are subject to a 50% miss chance.
Does that sound right?
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And to further support this:
TOTAL CONCEALMENT (Extract)
"Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Perception checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Stealth checks when not moving (even though opponents can't see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual or auditory clues)."
Kalraan you quoted it and still missed it.
INVISIBILITY (Special Ability) (Extract)
"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)."EDIT: I'm going to guess that its a DC 0 to spot someone in front of you, hence the DC 20 to spot a moving invisible creature in front of you (or DC 40 if its standing still). But at no stage does it say anywhere that I can find that an invisible creature has total concealment.
I'll also include this, as its important:
Also from the core rules.
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow invisible creature might get a smaller miss chance.
My next question is this:
Can the Wizard use Stealth+20 in place of the standard DC 20 (as he cannot be seen) to oppose the Perception checks of the Barbarian and Sorcerer?
The standard DC 20 is to see if the enemies can notice that he is within 30 feet. Beating this DC does not allow him to be pinpointed(know which square he is in). Outside of 30 feet this does not apply.
There was another thread on this issue, which dealt with actually pinpointing the invisible creature.
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...Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance)."
...the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance).
These are VERY good points, although I just wish that the rules were a little more exact. Saying something like the phrase, "benefits from" can be open to interpretation, while the word "has" is a lot less ambiguous. And lets not talk about the use of consistent language (i.e. Full and Total).
I guess that's why there is a message board dedicated to this sort of thing :)
My players argument was mainly that they were blocking the corridor and that to get past them, knowing he was there, should have been harder than knowing that he "might be there".
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I noticed the "full" and "total" also. "Full" should be "total", but I think the intent is clear.
From a rules point of view an invisible enemy going through your square is more difficult than an ally going through your square, but if you have no idea that something invisible is entering your square it would not matter if it was friendly or not, it should get by with the same amount of ease.
For the sake of the rules they should lose their dex bonus to CMD if the invisible creature tries a bull rush to get by. <---rules only answer, but invisible creature will not provoke.
edit:As an aside remind your players that the rules work the same for NPC's and for PC's and they should consider that when trying to get you to rule a certain way.
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I agree Wraithstrike. I'm just trying to find a balance.
I didn't want to bull rush, as that's an attack, and so the Wizard would have happened exactly what he didn't want to have happen - he would have become visible.
On the players' defence, they just went with my ruling, and didn't complain at all. I think I'm arguing more with myself to find consistency with the rules and understand them fluently.
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I also think that this may also apply:
PERCEPTION: Hear the sound of a creature walking - DC 10
INVISIBLE: Creature or object is invisible - +20 to the DC
Thus giving the character a DC 30 Perception check to even "hear" him.
I guess though that it still doesn't change the fact that:
a) TOTAL CONCEALMENT: You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
- AND -
b) INVISIBILITY (Special Ability): Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).
Also, which link are you talking about?
I would have to look it up, but it was a dicussion on how invisibilty worked with the perception DC when someone was not even trying to be sneaky.
Jason said they would answer it shortly so hopefully by July they put out an explanation because right now the rules are kinda messed up.
July? Why July?
I am not saying it will be July. I just guessed at July because it is relatively soon. :)
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Thanks for all those who corrected me :)
Annoyingly I did check the rulebook for Cover and Concealment, the Invisible condition and the Invisibility special ability. Unfortunately because I saw a Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: section explicitly spelt out under the Cover section, I was looking for a similarly titled section in the Concealment section and I missed the pertinent text by skimming.
So whilst I was correct in saying...
Cover prevents AoOs yes, concealment doesn't though.
I was not correct in then saying...
So technically an invisible character does provoke I believe.
...because being invisible doesn't just give your Concealment (which doesn't prevent AoOs) but gives you Total Concealment (which does).