When do you select Bonus Feats


Rules Questions


I believe I have the right of this, but I wanted to make sure. There was a discussion from a couple years back on the build board talking about a Cavalier at level 9 using his Tactician Bonus Feat granted at that level to take "Seize the Moment" (Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical). It was stated they could do this if they also took Improved Critical at level 9.

My impression was that this shouldn't be possible, as you first select your class, gain all your class abilities, and then select regular feats and skills. Therefor you can use a class bonus feat to qualify for a regular feat at the same level, but cannot use a regular feat to qualify for a class bonus feat at the same level. Is this correct?


Quote:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses

You apply all your class abilities first (which would include any bonus feats the class itself gives), and only then do you get the skill ranks and any feats our level gives you.


The class chart tells you when bonus feats are available, since they are are a class feature. As an example for a ranger you get them at level 2 and then every additional 4 levels.

They text shows you at what levels certain feats become availible to you as bonus feats.

Once again going back to the ranger class you can take manyshot as a bonus feat at level 6 or at any other level when you can take a bonus feat, but you can't do it at level 2 because manyshot is not availible at level 2 for a ranger.


I think I completely missed what the OP was asking. Oops. :)


wraithstrike wrote:
I think I completely missed what the OP was asking. Oops. :)

Don't feel bad, so did I.


The rules for creating a new character appear to allow more flexibility when creating higher level characters from the get-go than the rules for adding new levels to existing characters. Seems to me that's a very undesirable situation!

PRD wrote:

Generating a Character

From the sly rogue to the stalwart paladin, the Pathfinder RPG allows you to make the character you want to play. When generating a character, start with your character's concept. Do you want a character who goes toe-to-toe with terrible monsters, matching sword and shield against claws and fangs? Or do you want a mystical seer who draws his powers from the great beyond to further his own ends? Nearly anything is possible.

Once you have a general concept worked out, use the following steps to bring your idea to life, recording the resulting information and statistics on your Pathfinder RPG character sheet, which can be found at the back of this book and photocopied for your convenience.

Step 1—Determine Ability Scores: Start by generating your character's ability scores. These six scores determine your character's most basic attributes and are used to decide a wide variety of details and statistics. Some class selections require you to have better than average scores for some of your abilities.

Step 2—Pick Your Race: Next, pick your character's race, noting any modifiers to your ability scores and any other racial traits (see Races). There are seven basic races to choose from, although your GM might have others to add to the list. Each race lists the languages your character automatically knows, as well as a number of bonus languages. A character knows a number of additional bonus languages equal to his or her Intelligence modifier.

Step 3—Pick Your Class: A character's class represents a profession, such as fighter or wizard. If this is a new character, he starts at 1st level in his chosen class. As he gains experience points (XP) for defeating monsters, he goes up in level, granting him new powers and abilities.

Step 4—Pick Skills and Select Feats: Determine the number of skill ranks possessed by your character, based on his class and Intelligence modifier (and any other bonuses, such as the bonus received by humans). Then spend these ranks on skills, but remember that you cannot have more ranks than your level in any one skill (for a starting character, this is usually one). After skills, determine how many feats your character receives, based on his class and level, and select them from those presented in Feats.

versus

PRD wrote:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.


Jeraa wrote:
Quote:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses
You apply all your class abilities first (which would include any bonus feats the class itself gives), and only then do you get the skill ranks and any feats our level gives you.

Ok, thanks to all. It sounds as if my interpretation is correct. If you gain both a class bonus feat and a regular feat at a particular level, you can use the class bonus feat to qualify for the regular feat but not the other way around.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the OP (and Jeraa) are reading too much into the quoted text.

The class ability you gain is an additional (restricted) feat slot.
Saying that you must fill that slot before filling any regular feat slot (and thus possibly satisfying pre-requisites for the bonus feat) seems to me to be going out of your way to read the text in the way least favourable to the player; that's contrary to the way things are usually done in Pathfinder.


JohnF wrote:


I think the OP (and Jeraa) are reading too much into the quoted text.

The class ability you gain is an additional (restricted) feat slot.
Saying that you must fill that slot before filling any regular feat slot (and thus possibly satisfying pre-requisites for the bonus feat) seems to me to be going out of your way to read the text in the way least favourable to the player; that's contrary to the way things are usually done in Pathfinder.

Usually but not always.

For example, your Druid's animal companion can't select a feat that has a prerequisite of base attack bonus +1 until it has a base attack bonus of +2. That's definitely unfavourable to the player.


JohnF wrote:


I think the OP (and Jeraa) are reading too much into the quoted text.

The class ability you gain is an additional (restricted) feat slot.
Saying that you must fill that slot before filling any regular feat slot (and thus possibly satisfying pre-requisites for the bonus feat) seems to me to be going out of your way to read the text in the way least favourable to the player; that's contrary to the way things are usually done in Pathfinder.

Actually, this is a good point. One could read this as "you gain your class ability, which grants you a feat, gaining the feat itself is deferred until the next phase."

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