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I've been playing around with an interesting idea for a Monk to use in PFS (even though I haven't played PFS in a while, but that's a separate topic). Thought I'd get some feedback on it; first to see if it's a good idea, and second if it works like I think it does.
Oni-Spawn Tiefling (Beguiling Liar and Prehensile Tail alternate racial traits)
STR 17 (15 + 2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 16 (14 + 2)
CHA 5 (7 - 2)
Traits: Accelerated Drinker, (haven't decided on the other one; maybe Adopted: Enlightened Warrior to not be lawful, or Adopted: Elven Reflexes for increased initiative)
01:Monk 1 [Drunken Master, Monk of the Four Winds, Qinggong Monk] Armor of the Pit, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike
02: Fighter 1 [Lore Warden] [Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)]
03: Cleric 1 [Separatist][Forbidden Rites: Protection (Defense)][Give up normal Domain for Conversion inquisition] Crusader's Flurry
04+: Continue with levels of Monk
At level 1, (s)he's nothing too special, although having AC 18 while wearing a loincloth is amusing.
At level 2, (s)he gains proficiency with the Scimitar, as well as an extra point to attack rolls. Still can't flurry with it, but at this level, flurring with a Cestus or Unarmed Strike works just fine.
At level 3, (s)he gains the ability to flurry with a Scimitar, the ability to cast Shield (since it's a domain spell of the Defense subdomain), as well as use Wands of Shield. Walk around with a Scimitar in one hand, a potion of Mage Armour in the other, and a Wand of Shield in a spring-loaded wrist sheathe. Start of combat, drink the potion as a move action, get the Wand of Shield as a swift, cast Shield as your standard, and suddenly you have a Monk with AC 26. In addition, you get to be party face by using Wisdom for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate (and the latter 2 skills are class skills; Beguiling Liar makes up for Bluff not being a class skill.)
Only downside is attack bonus isn't much better than a single-class monk. But flurrying with a high crit range weapon is cool.
Questions:
(1) I *think* you can take Separatist Cleric, get a domain not part of Sarenrae's domain list, and then exchange the normal domain for an Inquisition, but I wouldn't mind getting other people's opinion on that.
(2) Thoughts?
Sarenrae gives favored weapon scimitar, so you can take a cleric level at level 1 to gain proficiency and take weapon focus scimitar. Then put a skill point into perform (dance).
Level 2, take the level of fighter, another skill point into perform (dance) and take weapon finesse.
Level 3, level of monk and take Crusader's Flurry.
Level 4, a level in fighter and take Dervish Dance (or wait to take Dervish dance until level 5).
This would let you dump Strength entirely and buff your dex and con. Though, you'd probably want to change your tiefling to be Asura-Spawn. Dervish Dance monk is a hilarious idea, in my opinion, and it helps you be not MAD. If you go Dervish, you can have 7, 16, 14, 13, 16, 7 before racial modifiers.
Though, that's just my munchkin side talking. It looks right and hilarious. As far as the question 2 goes, I'm fairly sure that you can take separatist since cursader's flurry doesn't say that you need to get proficiency from being a cleric and you have it from being a fighter.
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Thanks for the replies!
As for Dervish Dance, that is indeed one approach. Only downside to that is I won't be able to take Power Attack if I completely dump strength (and Piranha Strike doesn't work with a scimitar). Even if I left some strength to take Power Attack, then I won't be able to two-hand the scimitar for 3:1 with Power Attack. (Note: I probably wouldn't be using Power Attack often though, pretty much only in cases of low-AC monsters, or high-AC monsters, or monsters with DR that I can't bypass).
Taking a level of Dawnflower Dervish Bard would cut down on the need of taking Weapon Finesse, since they get it for free (and the double Inspire Courage bump makes the loss of BAB sting less too).
With this strength build, I'd be more focused on STR/WIS, so I'm not as MAD as I could have been. Plus, with Drunken Master's Drunken Ki ability, a Flask of Endless Sake, and Barkskin as a Ki Power, I get an at-will scaling natural armour bonus too, making DEX even less of a priority.
Hmm, in the end, I think it might all even out.
Thanks for the feedback!
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In the Cleric entry of the Core Rulebook, where it describes their domains, you'll see that domain spells are considered "bonus spells". They are not added to the Cleric spell list. In order to use any spell trigger items (such as wands) containing a spell that is not on your class spell list, you would need to make the appropriate UMD check.
If you look further into how spell trigger items work, you'll see that "Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell." Clerics cannot normally cast Shield, as it is not on their class list.
Although it's a perfectly acceptable house rule, in PFS you'd be out of luck.
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I don't think that is correct:
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
It does indeed say anyone whose class can cast the spell. However, it doesn't reference "class spell list" or any such wording. The only prerequisite is that a class can cast the corresponding spell. So, a Cleric who can cast a spell from a domain can cast the corresponding spell, so can use a wand of such an item.
Otherwise, you get into crazy areas if you have a Cleric with Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand (obviously not for PFS, since they are not allowed). Those feats say I can create a scroll/wand for any spell that I know. Since I know how to cast Shield, I can create a scroll/wand of that spell, but therefore unable to use it?
In my mind, the RAW and RAI seem to support my view that a Cleric with the Protection[Defense] domain can use a wand of Shield because he can cast shield. However, another Cleric who does not have that domain cannot use a wand of Shield, because he cannot cast such a spell.
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I like your idea, but I'm not really seeing the appeal of the archetypes you're taking for your monk. Is 1d6 extra damage really worth your ki points? Wouldn't you rather have the extra attack in pretty much all cases? And is the temporary drunken ki really that worthwhile? And is elemental fist really more worthwhile than stunning fist?
If I were you, I'd look at the hungry ghost monk. To my mind, their steal ki ability looks as if it will give you more benefit than the drunken ki, especially with your high crit weapon. And I expect you'll spend your ki on extra attacks anyway, so you shouldn't really miss drunken strength.
To be honest, I think the Drunken Ki ability is pretty good. As far as allowing me extra attacks, the level I get the Hungry Ghost Monk's Steal Ki ability is about on par with starting the fight with 2 Drunken Ki points.
Even with a +1 Keen Scimitar, 30% of all attacks are a critical threat. Let's assume that there's a 50/50 chance to confirm a crit, so that means 15% of all attacks will be a crit. 85% of the time is not a crit. Assume 4 attacks at level 7 by spending a Ki point, with the last attack being slightly harder to crit with (I'll put it at a 12.5% chance to crit, so 87.5% will be a non-crit).
1 - (.85^3 + .875) ~= 43% of any round will result in a crit.
Let's assume that I can kill creatures on my own, and for rounding off things, 50% of any given round results in me getting back a spent ki point.
So after 4 rounds (which may be typical), I spent 4 ki points, got back 2, so overall spent 2.
With Drunken Ki, I spend 2 Drunken Ki points and 2 normal Ki points over 4 rounds.
But, the added benefit of using Drunken Ki to fuel an at-will barkskin, plus at Monk 7 to fuel Wholeness of Body, seems to indicate that Drunken Master may be better. Plus, at higher levels, I spend fewer and fewer Ki points for extra attacks as I'll be able to start a fight with more Drunken Ki.
As for Stunning Fist vs Elemental Fist, I can use Elemental Fist with a Scimitar. I can't use Stunning Fist unless I get a Ki weapon or take Cornugon Stun. And all I have to do is hit to use Elemental Fist. For Stunning Fist, I have to hit AND they have to fail the Fort save.
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I had the concern about all that drinking as well before. And truth be told, I'm not 100% sure how it would be handled in PFS, mainly because the rules that cover drunkeness is in the Game Mastery Guide, which isn't technically an approved PFS resource. So I don't know how a PFS judge will actually handle it.
At the very least, I do plan on printing out the relevant section from the GMG and keep it handy, and ask how that particular judge will be handling the consumption of so much alcohol. Worst case is I end up drinking alcohol only sparingly to fuel Barkskin. If they end up not being concerned, then this monk will probably be chugging down booze like there's no tomorrow ;-)
EDIT: Speaking of the GMG and Drunkeness, I never really understood exactly how many drinks you can drink before becoming sickened. Is it per hour, per day, per fortnight? I don't think it clearly spelled it out for me the last time I read it.
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-_-
You bolded the exact same sentence that I quoted for you earlier.
If you take a look at other classes that give bonus spells, such as the Oracle revelations, the Sorcerer bloodlines, and IIRC the Pathfinder Savant PrC, they all say that their bonus spells are added to their class' list. The Cleric is, and always has been, the one exception. For them, they're just bonus spells.
Either way you interpret it, be prepared for table variation. I'm sure some GMs may support you. In a home game, I would, too.
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-_-
You bolded the exact same sentence that I quoted for you earlier.
If you take a look at other classes that give bonus spells, such as the Oracle revelations, the Sorcerer bloodlines, and IIRC the Pathfinder Savant PrC, they all say that their bonus spells are added to their class' list. The Cleric is, and always has been, the one exception. For them, they're just bonus spells.
Either way you interpret it, be prepared for table variation. I'm sure some GMs may support you. In a home game, I would, too.
I realize that I quoted the same text you quoted. Just disagreed with the interpretation that you provided, as I seem to interpret them in a different way (and, I think, the vast majority of GMs would as well).
But in the end, it's no big deal. If a GM makes that kind of a ruling, I'll just simply pack up my stuff, and walk away from the table, and make a mental note to never play with that particular GM ever again. :-)
Do you do that every time you disagree with a rules interpretation?
You must not play much Society.
SKR agrees with him.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mzdz?Scrolls-and-Domains#14Thus, there shouldn't be much table variation.
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Actually, no, I don't do that with every rules interpretation, only ones where I can't look at it from the others point of view, and actually see why they think it works that way.
And to date, I have not done that once, in PFS, nor in Living Greyhawk since I started playing RPGs around 2000. Because every single time I came into a rules dispute, I recognized that the answer was not clear, and that it could be interpreted either way. And yes, in some of those cases, I turned out to be wrong, and admitted that I was wrong. It happens, we're all human.
It's just that, in such a case where I strongly disagree with such a ruling, I would rather politely walk away from the table than sit there for half an hour arguing with the GM and making things bad for the rest of the table OR accepting such a ruling and risk getting my character killed, or worse, having a TPK be the end result.
As an aside: I haven't played PFS lately, but that is more to do with personal life getting in the way than anything else.
EDIT: @soupturtle: The more I think about it, the more I think I might need to reconsider Hungry Ghost Monk, simply because of the alcohol thing. Thanks for that.
As for Dervish Dance, that is indeed one approach.
I'd advise against Dervish Dance, even with a strength based build. If not for you who is already going Strength then to others who stumble upon this thread.
Starting at level 1 and using a Dervish Dance with low strength, you spend a level or two doing sub par damage. I've been through that on my Dervish Dance Tiefling Magus and those first two levels were painful.
...Piranha Strike doesn't work with a scimitar.
By RAW, you are correct, but then Weapon Finesse can't be used on Scimitar and that is a prereq for Dervish Dance. Dervish Dance applies the effect of Weapon Finesse to Scimitar just as if it is a light weapon, even allowing it to count as piercing where needed. The case could (and has) been made that the Scimitar could be considered a light weapon in the hands of someone with Dervish Dance. My DM allowed it (not PFS though, so YMMV).
I think I'd still prefer your STR/WIS based build for this, even if Piranha Strike was available. The +2 natural armor from Armor of the Pit on a DEX/WIS monk would be great to see though...
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Just figured I'd leave this thought here:
I think I will go with the Drunken Master archetype after all. If becoming sickened becomes an issue as a result of drinking so much alcohol, then I'll just use a Potion of Remove Sickness or a Wand of Remove Sickness at the start of combat to supress the effects.
@MeatForTheGrinder: Yeah, one of the main reasons I was hesitant for the Dervish Dance build was that it probably doesn't work very well at low levels.