Shield with Spikes and the Bashing property - Is it PFS Legal?

[Slartibart]

I have a player that asked this question at my table earlier this week, and we were unable to find an answer.

James Jacobs posted Here that it isn't intended to work that way and that it would be addressed in the FAQ, but that was over three years ago, and I couldn't find it in the FAQ.

The searching I did turned up a few different conflicting answers. My first thought is to disallow it, saying that the two abilities are separate and he can choose one or the other, but I don't want to exercise GM fiat on a PFS character.

Does anyone else have a link to an official ruling, or have a PFS authorized answer?

[Sniggevert]

They've never come out and given a specific FAQ for it, and I had always gone with James' post till recently. In the NPC Codex, the 20th level barbarian has a spiked heavy bashing shield where everything stacked, so there is some in print precedent that they will stack.

Whether this was intentional, or slipped through the cracks, or not is another story, but there is now some printed basis for them stacking.

[Poit]

James Jacobs is not an official rules source - his rulings are just the way he interprets the rules, and how he rules things in his own games.

There's never been an official ruling on this. I once asked Jason Buhlman if they stack, and he didn't know offhand.

There doesn't appear to be anything in the rules that prevents them from stacking, but some people dislike them stacking for whatever reason. I have a character with a spiked bashing shield, and I accept that some GMs won't let them stack. I'm not happy about it, and I'll certainly state my case once (and try to have a further discussion after the game), but I accept it.

[Robert A Matthews]

Perhaps we should make a FAQ bait thread asking the question. If you enchant a spiked shield with the bashing quality, does it count as a shield three size categories larger for the purposes of damage dealt with a shield bash?

If I'm not mistaken, that would make a heavy spiked shield deal 2d6 damage.

[Sniggevert]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, that would make a heavy spiked shield deal 2d6 damage.

YES.

Scarred Wanderer wrote:

Melee +5 bashing spiked heavy shield +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+11) or +5 bashing spiked heavy shield +29/+24/+19/+14 (2d6+11), +1 adamantine dwarven waraxe +25 (1d10+4/×3)

[Robert A Matthews]

Awesome. If I make a character that uses this though, I have a feeling I'll have to keep a print out of that page with my character as some GMs might rule that both properties don't stack.

[SCPRedMage]

Poit wrote:

James Jacobs is not an official rules source - his rulings are just the way he interprets the rules, and how he rules things in his own games.

Not to mention the fact that his justification for his ruling on shield spikes and bashing not stacking is completely wrong.

He stated that when attacking with shield spikes, you're not making a shield bash attack, as shield spikes are a separate weapon; he justifies them being a separate weapon because they have a separate entry in the weapons table. Since they are a separate weapon, the bashing enchantment does not apply, as it applies to the shield, not the spikes.

He's wrong for two reasons:
1. Shield spikes are not a separate item, but instead a modification to a base item; this is indicated most clearly on the armor table, where their cost and weight are listed as modifiers, indicating that there has to be a base item to apply them to.

2. The description of shield spikes explicitly states that attacking with shield spikes is a shield bash.

The Scarred Wanderer is indeed the best indication that, as far as at least one Paizo writer (and any editors that went over it) is concerned, the two DO stack, so keeping it handy is a good idea.

I actually DO have a character that will (eventually) use this; he's a two-weapon fighter, using shields (heavy on main hand, light on off-hand) for weapons.

[N N 959]

SCPRedMage wrote:

I actually DO have a character that will (eventually) use this; he's a two-weapon fighter, using shields (heavy on main hand, light on off-hand) for weapons.

I have a just under 2nd lvl character that might go this route, but I have to say that I think there should be some extra rule that using two shields (spiked or otherwise) as weapons, makes the combo decidedly ineffective.

I base this not on any real life experience, balance equations, or rigorous physics, but on never having heard about such a technique in gladiatorial combat, texts on ancient battles, or the like. Of course, maybe it's there and my puny knowledge on such topics is the culprit, but sheesh, I've never even seen it in a movie.

[Todd Morgan]

Testing it Hero Lab, it looks like it stacks. Not that it is a perfect source for rules, but I imagine they have a direct line to rules people at Paizo when they have questions

[BigNorseWolf]

Expect. Table. variation.

[Jason Wu]

N N 959 wrote:

I base this not on any real life experience, balance equations, or rigorous physics, but on never having heard about such a technique in gladiatorial combat, texts on ancient battles, or the like. Of course, maybe it's there and my puny knowledge on such topics is the culprit, but sheesh, I've never even seen it in a movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs

Also, I recall seeing a video of Elvis Stojko (yes, the figure skater) performing a dual-shield kata with round shields.

-j

[Aelryinth]

This has stacked since 3.5.

The first NPC stat block I saw with it was in the Book of Exalted Deeds, where the standard shield used by the Asuras (CG there) is a +1 Spiked Bashing shield, and yes, it did 2-12 damage.

A standard Uber Shield assumes they stack (+5 Bashing Shield, +5 Defender). There are no rules to indicate that they do NOT stack.

==Aelryinth

[BuzzardB]

Sniggevert wrote:

YES.

PRD wrote:

orheavy, ormwk, orspiked, orarmor, orthrowing, orspiked

Paizo needs a new spacebar.