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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So, I'm trying to work with Burning Disarm.
Some GM's I've come across say that since it says they may attempt a reflex save to drop the weapon, they don't have to attempt the save. If they want to hold onto the weapon and take the damage, they just do. Ok, I guess, but now the tricky part. Does this count as failing the save?
My specific example:
I've used my sorcerer bloodline to make it a cold spell. I'm using it with Oracle of Winter's Freezing Spells.
My intent is that if they make the save, they're disarmed. If they fail the save, they're Slowed and take damage. If they choose not to make a save, and just hold onto the weapon, they're still Slowed and take damage?
One GM also messed me up by arming them with wooden weapons, but can't help that much.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If the creature chooses not to attempt a save, then they didn't fail a save. So it wouldn't be slowed in that case.
If you think of it that way, then the creature will be penalized for getting the option to save, when they otherwise wouldn't be penalized at all.
For instance, in the situation where the creature has a locked gauntlet, there is no save, which means the "spells that do not allow saves do not slow creatures" part would kick in.
It might be worth it to hit the FAQ button, though, if you want an official ruling on it.
So, I understand that this is not a popular opinion, but I feel compelled to bring this up because it seems that my reading of the power is different than everyone else.
School transmutation [fire]; Level cleric/oracle 1, druid 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range Short (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target Held metal item of one creature or 15 lbs. of unattended metal
Duration Instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex negates (object, see text); Spell Resistance Yes (object)
DESCRIPTION
This spell causes a metal object to instantly become red hot. A creature holding the item may attempt a Reflex save to drop it and take no damage (even if it is not their turn), otherwise the hot metal deals 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). Circumstances that prevent the creature from dropping the item (such as a locked gauntlet) mean the creature gets no saving throw. The heat does not harm the item, and it does not get hot enough or last long enough to ignite flammable objects. The item cools to its previous temperature almost instantly. If cast underwater, burning disarm deals half damage and boils the surrounding water.
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.
So, step one of the spell is that the object itself gets a Reflex save and if that save works, the spell is negated. The object is invariably being held (attended), so that means the object makes a Reflex save with the bonus of the creature holding it.
If the object makes that save, the entire spell is negated totally. If the object fails the save, then, and only then, do the effects of the spell take place. In this case, the weapon heats up and the holder of said weapon makes a save to drop it. This additional save is referenced by the "see text" tag in the spell's save line.
In other words, this spell is not a powerful catch-22 effect because there actually is a built in chance it could be completely negated. If I were you, I wouldn't rely on this spell the way you're trying to manipulate it--it's not as reliable as is commonly believed.
Anyway, as for your actual question:
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw:
"A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result."
When you forgo a saving throw, you do not fail a save, you totally forgo it. You suffer the effects of the spell, but not the effects of riders dependent on you failing.
So, I understand that this is not a popular opinion, but I feel compelled to bring this up because it seems that my reading of the power is different than everyone else.
** spoiler omitted **So, as you can see, Burning disarm's Save line includes an "(object)" notation, and reading that notation in the general rules reveals that...
boy this spell text is written poorly. I just wrote out a rebuttal to your points, and after rereading your post, and rereading the spell, I'm forced to agree with you.
The spell should explicitly state in the Saving Throw description that the object first must save, then the wielder can opt to save.Otherwise it is an OP spell that could be abused.