Are you an evil outsider or just Outsider(evil)?

[Elamdri]

My party was playing the end of the 1st Jade Regent module today and we ran into a rules snag.

Jade Regent 1:

The party had found a number of +2 bane evil outsider arrows in the castle. Later, the party was fighting Nindinzego, the half-fiend decapus in the basement of the castle. They thought he was an evil outsider, and used the arrows, only to be sadly told by me that he was in fact Outsider(Native) not outsider evil. They presented the argument that since Nindinzego is a CE evil giant evil tenacle monster of doom, it doesn't make sense for him to not be evil. I explained that the bane rules don't care about alignment, but rather your type and subtype, and he was not subtype evil.

So what would you guys have done there? I feel as if I made the correct rules call, but I can see why they were confused.

Spoiler:

Especially because from what I can tell, there are no actual evil outsiders in the 1st AP to use the Bane arrows on, which is somewhat uncommon for an AP to put in such specific items like that and never give an opportunity to use them in that module. A misfire of Chekov's gun.

[LazarX]

If you have the evil and outsider subtypes the arrows do their full effect on you regardless of your alignment

Half fiends ARE subtype evil and the arrows were put in that module to be used against him.

[Rynjin]

Well, I looked him up and he does not have the Evil subtype, so yeah they don't work by RAW, since that's what X Bane weapons attack (subtypes).

Though I have to say that's a pretty mean trick for the AP to pull there. I probably would have allowed it because he IS Chaotic Evil AND is an Outsider, but I can't say you did wrong in following the rules on that.

@LazarX: Half-Fiends do NOT gain the Evil subtype, just the Native Outsider one, though they are restricted to Any Evil alignment.

[LazarX]

Rynjin wrote:

Well, I looked him up and he does not have the Evil subtype, so yeah they don't work by RAW, since that's what X Bane weapons attack (subtypes).

Though I have to say that's a pretty mean trick for the AP to pull there. I probably would have allowed it because he IS Chaotic Evil AND is an Outsider, but I can't say you did wrong in following the rules on that.

@LazarX: Half-Fiends do NOT gain the Evil subtype, just the Native Outsider one, though they are restricted to Any Evil alignment.

Outsider subtype by being a Half-Fiend. Evil by alignment. That's good enough for the arrows. As long as you have the combination of evil and outsider IN ANY FORM, that qualifies.

[Rynjin]

No, it's not by the rules.

It says on the Bane property "Outsider (pick one subtype)".

Native Outsider and Evil Outsider are not the same subtype, regardless of alignment.

You can have an LG Outsider (Evil) and Outsider (Evil) Bane arrows will affect it, but Outsider (Good) arrows will not.

If this were an Outsider (Native, Evil) the arrows would work, but he is just an Outsider (Native).

[LazarX]

Rynjin wrote:

No, it's not by the rules.

It says on the Bane property "Outsider (pick one subtype)".

Native Outsider and Evil Outsider are not the same subtype, regardless of alignment.

You can have an LG Outsider (Evil) and Outsider (Evil) Bane arrows will affect it, but Outsider (Good) arrows will not.

If this were an Outsider (Native, Evil) the arrows would work, but he is just an Outsider (Native).

That's a difference between you and me. I consider obvious RAI to trump RAW, even if the RAI isn't as correct an interpretation. The arrows were there as a weapon against a major foe. I'd have taken into the account the very real probability that the author slipped up on the item inclusion and worked around it.

[the David]

Wouldn't a knowledge check reveal the subtype. (With a bit of leniency from the GM.)

[blackbloodtroll]

It's the Subtype that is important, not the alignment.

[LazarX]

It's the story that's important. Do your best to divine the author's intentions, see if they make both a good story and a good game, and just make it work. If it takes a minor bending of the rules to make it so, than you just do it.

That's the old school style of DMing.

[Daniel Chaplik]

LazarX wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

No, it's not by the rules.

It says on the Bane property "Outsider (pick one subtype)".

Native Outsider and Evil Outsider are not the same subtype, regardless of alignment.

You can have an LG Outsider (Evil) and Outsider (Evil) Bane arrows will affect it, but Outsider (Good) arrows will not.

If this were an Outsider (Native, Evil) the arrows would work, but he is just an Outsider (Native).

That's a difference between you and me. I consider obvious RAI to trump RAW, even if the RAI isn't as correct an interpretation. The arrows were there as a weapon against a major foe. I'd have taken into the account the very real probability that the author slipped up on the item inclusion and worked around it.

Except, that's obviously not any sort of RAI.

The half-fiend template ITSELF specifically does not give the (evil) subtype. It has never given the evil subtype. As far as I can tell, it's never going to GIVE the evil subtype. A native outsider is not made of the same "cosmic stuff" that a normal outsider is made of, which is why a "real" outsider can be made of good or evil, law or chaos.

[Rynjin]

LazarX wrote:

That's a difference between you and me. I consider obvious RAI to trump RAW, even if the RAI isn't as correct an interpretation. The arrows were there as a weapon against a major foe. I'd have taken into the account the very real probability that the author slipped up on the item inclusion and worked around it.

LazarX wrote:

It's the story that's important. Do your best to divine the author's intentions, see if they make both a good story and a good game, and just make it work. If it takes a minor bending of the rules to make it so, than you just do it.

That's the old school style of DMing.

First off, chill the f##@ out and climb off the high horse.

Second,

Quote:

Though I have to say that's a pretty mean trick for the AP to pull there. I probably would have allowed it because he IS Chaotic Evil AND is an Outsider

^My first post.

Third, it's not the RAI either. Subtypes exist for a reason. If it was intended to work based off alignment it would say so instead of "Pick a subtype".

Holy/Unholy/Axiomatic/Chaotic are there for alignments. Bane is different.

[Diego Rossi]

LazarX wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

No, it's not by the rules.

It says on the Bane property "Outsider (pick one subtype)".

Native Outsider and Evil Outsider are not the same subtype, regardless of alignment.

You can have an LG Outsider (Evil) and Outsider (Evil) Bane arrows will affect it, but Outsider (Good) arrows will not.

If this were an Outsider (Native, Evil) the arrows would work, but he is just an Outsider (Native).

That's a difference between you and me. I consider obvious RAI to trump RAW, even if the RAI isn't as correct an interpretation. The arrows were there as a weapon against a major foe. I'd have taken into the account the very real probability that the author slipped up on the item inclusion and worked around it.

You think that what you find in one AP should be immediately useful in the same installment of that AP.

Let's see a few examples:
- fist adventure of another AP: we get a +1 mithril dagger that count as silver. No creature with DR/silver in the whole AP.
- second adventure of the same AP: still no creature with DR/silver, we have found a +1 shapechanger(humanoid) bane dagger. No shapechanger (humanoid) in the second module.
- I am told that the third module would be about lycantropes and at that time those items will become very good.

So maybe the arrows will become useful in a later adventure of the AP?

The RAW is very clear, you need to match the subtype and the creature alignment don't matter. The demon has been forced to don a helm of opposite alignment and is Lawful Good? He is still affected by outsider (evil) bane weapons as his subtype hasn't changed.

[Elamdri]

the David wrote:

Wouldn't a knowledge check reveal the subtype. (With a bit of leniency from the GM.)

I would have allowed it, but the party is light on knowledges and planes is one of them sadly. I let them commit to firing one arrow before informing them the bane property didn't trigger.

I'm a little surprised to be honest:

Jade Regent:

The two big bads of the AP, Kikonu and Nindinzego, both are evil and are outsiders, but are both typed as Outsider(Native) For the purposes of Bane weaponry. Thus I was surprised that Brinewall Castle contained those +2 Bane Outsider(Evil) arrows because the party got them and was immediately of the mindset of "oh, we'll I guess we'll be using these." Well apparently not. I'm aware that sometimes loot like this is handed out for intent to be used later in the story, but it is somewhat atypical in my experiences. Especially considering how powerful Nindinzego is.

[Diego Rossi]

AP have a tendency to equip you not only for what you will find in that module but for the next modules too.

It will depend on the difficulty of the battle, but I would have hoarded the +3 equivalent enhancement arrows for later encounters.

[Rynjin]

Diego Rossi wrote:

You think that what you find in one AP should be immediately useful in the same installment of that AP.

Let's see a few examples:
- fist adventure of another AP: we get a +1 mithril dagger that count as silver. No creature with DR/silver in the whole AP.
- second adventure of the same AP: still no creature with DR/silver, we have found a +1 shapechanger(humanoid) bane dagger. No shapechanger (humanoid) in the second module.
- I am told that the third module would be about lycantropes and at that time those items will become very good.

Don't forget the 5 Silver Weapon Blanches found in Book 2 as well

(I'm running this AP right now and my party should be starting Book 3 this or next week, what a koinky dink!)

[Elamdri]

Yes, I'm aware, but as far as I can tell, they won't be getting any use out of them in the 2nd module either (haven't looked through the rest). Admittedly, I missed the subtype difference as well. As it stands, I killed two players in the fight in question because the monster is just absolutely brutal for a party of 4th level PCs and my party was sadly not well equipped to deal with any of his abilities. I was just expecting the AP to have something in there to even out the fight a bit, and when I had first looked at the arrows in question, I thought that was the case. Then I got to the fight today and re-read the stat block and went "ooo..."

[Derek Vande Brake]

I'd point out that the main antagonist of Burnt Offerings (at least in the updated Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition) is specifically called out as being immune to a Yeth Hound's bay - the character in question is considered an evil outsider, despite not having the evil subtype.

[Elamdri]

Derek Vande Brake wrote:

I'd point out that the main antagonist of Burnt Offerings (at least in the updated Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition) is specifically called out as being immune to a Yeth Hound's bay - the character in question is considered an evil outsider, despite not having the evil subtype.

Not being an evil outside is probably why they specifically called out the NPC as being immune. That I'm fine with. The AP author is free to modify the rules and NPCs to suit the story.

[Derek Vande Brake]

Hmm, after reading the Bane weapons closer, I guess I'd agree that those don't work.

Holy Water, however, should work just fine.

[Elamdri]

Derek Vande Brake wrote:

Hmm, after reading the Bane weapons closer, I guess I'd agree that those don't work.

Holy Water, however, should work just fine.

Hmm...that's an interesting point. Holy water does say evil outsiders not Outsider(evil).

At the same time however, I thought the point of that was because Outsider(evil) is literally made out of pure evil essence. That's not the case with an Outsider(native).

[blackbloodtroll]

Indeed. Outsider(evil) and Evil Outsider, are not the same thing.

[Diekssus]

If only for clarification, I would like to ask this:

While it has been established that the Bane property is reliant on a specific subtype. what about abilities that do not specify this?

For example the "Bypassing Strike" of the "Fiend Flayer" It simply mentions evil outsiders, not outsiders (evil)

Would this work on a outsider (native) with an evil alignment?