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Hey Forum
I've been searching the board for illusions and how you should deal with them both as a GM and as Player, but it still troubles me.
My first example: On a battlefield in daylight the party reach the BBEG which is not a spellcaster and our wizard illusionist thinks to block vision of party by surrounding and trapping the BBEG with a silent image of a stone cube.
How should i react as GM to this?
Should i get autosave on will save because i have proof that this is not a stone cube as light would not be in it?
Or use my next action to determend if how this stone cube has suddenly appeared, and then get a will save?
Second: if we change the BBEG so he is a spellcaster and makes his spellcraft check as the spell is being cast gives him a autosave as proof of it is created by magic from illusion school?
Next: Now let us assume that the BBEG did not succed his will save and the ranged in the party has been told this is an illusion. The ranger shoots at the stone cube, he hits the AC of the illusion and gets a will save with +4. okey he makes the save and can now see the BBEG inside the stone cube. Next arrow is aiming for the BBEG, as he is flat-footed because he cant see the attacker he is hit, would that be proof that the stone cube is not real as arrows can come trough it?
And now to the Darkness/Light
It is night and the moon is full the battlefield is in dim light, the party has ventured out to slay the BBEG. Our Cleric in the party has cast Light on her scimitar, and our fighter has a torch. They encounter the BBEG as he suprise them by casting Darkness.
Should the illumination level be Normal light produced from light spell and torch or the natural dim light which the moon provide when darkness comes into effect?
Thanks
1st ex: You would not get an auto save unless you have absolute proof it's an illusion. What I would do is allow the BBEG to spend a move action thinking about the cube and why there is light inside an enclosed space. Then BBEG makes a will save to disbelieve.
2nd ex: I usually give spellcasters who identify the spell a will save with a +4 modifier. This is because they have a hint that it is an illusion. This is the same thing as the player spellcaster telling the party it is an illusion before casting. Some GM's allow spellcraft to auto save vs illusions.
3rd ex: I would actually say that the first arrow hitting the cube would cause the auto save vs illusion for the BBEG. That first arrow will fly right on by the BBEG. Illusion is now broken for ALL.
4th ex: You had to ask a lighting question. If the torch and light spell are within the darkness then they are both negated and the natural light level (dim) is dropped one stage to Dark.
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1) Describe the new situation. Keep in mind the stone block will either a) Be hollow, or b) automatically fail if the BBEG is inside it.
IF the NPC is touching the hollow stone block around him he gets a save. If it is light wherever you are keep in mind illusions do not block line of sight or effect, and therefore would let the ambient inside of this solid wall. Right off the bat I'd give the NPC a WIS check just to figure this out as soon as the spell hits.
2) If the BBEG has any ranks in spellcraft or knowledge arcana then he could roll to identify the spell. He succeeds, give him a significant bonus on his WIS check, and a circumstance bonus for the Save. No matter what, by RAW he wouldn't automatically know the illusion is just that even if he saw it being cast. He could similarly roll a MUCH higher check versus a magic item activation effect, something on par of 10+Caster Level+Spell Level
3) If your ranger cannot make the save against the cube by interacting with it first then he could not use line of sight to target the BBEG, so it would require multiple shot, or a simple word from the illusionist-allowing him a will save of his own. Careful what you say out loud though, because the boss WILL be listening. I would give the Failed BBEG another will save for every additional time something interacts/passes through the stone cube, heck, I'd add up a +1 stacking bonus to each time it happens. Also I would be including 1 check every round as a full round action for the NPC to stumble around confused trying to figure things out.
4)It should be dark. The latest spell wins when it comes to equal level light/darkness spells. Since he has the drop on the party IF he is smart then he will use the Darkness to dispel the Light altogether.
If the Scimitar is outside range or even on the edge of it, it will continue to shed light outside Darkness radius as long as the Darkness is cast on an area instead of on the weapon itself. In this case we have normal light (From the Light spell) being reduced to dim light inside the radius of the Darkness The torch would work fine outside the Darkness, but burn and shed no light inside its radius as it is nonmagical.
In any case you will either have a situation where the Moon creates ambient dim light around the scene, and where darkness is cast the Moons illumiation goes down to darkness, the torch goes dark, and the Light spell only provides the same level of lighting as the Moon would anyhow. Like I said though, if the BBEG uses Darkness to dispel the Light, then they will be MUCH more disadvantaged than otherwise as it would drop them strait into darkness if he can target the weapon. (Users Will Save to Succeed as the item is "attended")
Hope this helps!
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Carbon D. Metric
1) the stone cube is hollow
2) is spellcraft not considert Proof?
4) if you only dispell the light there will still be normal light from the torch. and darkness says no magical light source with equal or lower lvl than darkness can raise the light level, but what if the illumination lvl has allready been increased by light?
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I'm playing with an Illusion focused Shadow Sorcerer Gnome in a game at the moment, so I have some experience of the frustrating confusion of Illusions.
My first example: On a battlefield in daylight the party reach the BBEG which is not a spellcaster and our wizard illusionist thinks to block vision of party by surrounding and trapping the BBEG with a silent image of a stone cube.
How should i react as GM to this?
Should i get autosave on will save because i have proof that this is not a stone cube as light would not be in it?
Or use my next action to determend if how this stone cube has suddenly appeared, and then get a will save?
If the BBEG sees the Wizard cast a spell, he can roll Spellcraft to identify the spell. He does not need to be a spellcaster himself to get this roll, but he most likely won't pass it if he isn't. If he does pass, he recognises that an Illusion spell has just been cast, and then a giant stone block appeared. According to the Illusion section of the CRB, "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. " My GM has ruled that recognising an Illusion spell being cast at them is sufficient proof for the resulting effect of that spell to be auto disbelieved. Other GMs would say that that is too harsh and maybe just suggest a will save, possibly with a bonus. Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV). If he doesn't recognise the spell, then on to the next test.
How is this cube being summoned? Is it hollow or solid? Is the BBEG inside the cube, or is it between the party and him? If the BBEG is within with what appears to a solid stone block but feels no physical force from the cube, I'd say that's grounds for auto disbelief right there, no action required. If he's inside a hollow cube, or the cube is between him and the party, then he needs to interact with the cube before he gets a check to disbelieve. Depending on who your BBEG is, how does he respond to suddenly being trapped in a box by his enemies? Slamming against the walls? Trying to dig out below? Patiently waiting for his moment to strike? That's going to be decided by the character's personality. However, when he does interact with it, or when arrows/spells start flying through the stone walls, we hit the next speed bump.
What is required to disbelieve? If the BBEG swings his axe at the walls of his stone prison, and it passes right through, or arrows start coming in, does he auto believe? What is sufficient proof that the illusion isn't real? My GM has decided that physically interacting with an illusion with no physical force/texture (such as Silent Image) is sufficient for auto disbelief, but other GM's may disagree. If he fails his Will save, does he subconsciously stop his axe just before it hits the wall, and he sits there in frustration while arrows pepper him through the walls? On one hand, we don't want to nerf Illusions. On the other hand, we don't want them to be so powerful they make other spells pointless. Unfortunately, there's a lack of hard rules on this, and I've seen plenty arguments going both ways. It's GM call in the end.
Like the others have mentioned, if this giant stone block appears but casts no shadow and blocks no light, maybe give him a Perception check to figure out something's up. Being that "Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus", I'd say this takes no action. If he passes, then give him a will save to disbelieve. Perhaps with a bonus, similar to the one you gain when someone else tells you something is an Illusion.
Second: if we change the BBEG so he is a spellcaster and makes his spellcraft check as the spell is being cast gives him a autosave as proof of it is created by magic from illusion school?
As I said above, my GM has ruled that recognising the spell is sufficient for an auto disbelieve. However, as the other two posters have shown, not every GM would agree, so YMMV. It's up to you.
Next: Now let us assume that the BBEG did not succed his will save and the ranged in the party has been told this is an illusion. The ranger shoots at the stone cube, he hits the AC of the illusion and gets a will save with +4. okey he makes the save and can now see the BBEG inside the stone cube. Next arrow is aiming for the BBEG, as he is flat-footed because he cant see the attacker he is hit, would that be proof that the stone cube is not real as arrows can come trough it?
Also, as discussed above, there is contention on the issue, trying not to overpower Illusions, but not to nerf them either. I'd say seeing your arrow not bounce off the stone wall is a will save opportunity, with a bonus. Something about it doesn't make sense, but maybe your mind is playing tricks on you? However, melee attacking the wall? I'd say you auto disbelieve the Illusion then, because you physically feel no resistance. If arrows starting flying in through the walls, I'd probably be trying to physically interact with the walls at that stage. The "test" arrow comes through, the BBEG sees it, runs up to the wall in question and runs right through. Or possibly runs the other direction. Really depends on the kind of person they are.
If the BBEG is next, he moves up to the wall. He then uses a standard action to try and break it down. Maybe he charges the wall? Either way, he wastes one turn, but auto disbelieves, as he has physically interacted with a wall with no physical form. The Ranger will get a will save, if he hasn't already disbelieved from the Illusionist saying "An Illusion is about to appear", from seeing the BBEG's fist suddenly coming through the wall. Depending on whether he successfully disbelieves or not, he may be unable to attack the BBEG, even though the BBEG has disbelieved, or he may attack as normal, as both he and the BBEG can see each other now.
If the Ranger is next, it depends on whether he passed his save when the Illusionist told him about the Illusion. If he passed, then he can attack the BBEG. This will give the BBEG a chance to disbelieve. If he failed, he can shoot the wall to get another will save. This also gives the BBEG a chance to disbelieve. If the BBEG passes, then he doesn't need to waste his next turn attacking the wall. If he fails, then he would most likely do what he would have done on his turn anyhow.
It is night and the moon is full the battlefield is in dim light, the party has ventured out to slay the BBEG. Our Cleric in the party has cast Light on her scimitar, and our fighter has a torch. They encounter the BBEG as he suprise them by casting Darkness.
Should the illumination level be Normal light produced from light spell and torch or the natural dim light which the moon provide when darkness comes into effect?
Darkness/Light is a nightmare of epic proportions, because no one can decide what ambient light is. However, in this case, it's not too bad. Darkness says that "Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness". As Light is a level 0 spell, it does not increase the light level within an area of Darkness. Darkness causes the light level to decrease by one step. Under the Vision & Light rules, "Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.". So, Darkness will reduce the light level from Dim to Darkness, and Light has no effect.
In contrary to Carbon D. Metric above, I would say if he is smart he absolutely will not "use the Darkness to dispel the Light altogether." Light will have no effect in the area of Darkness as it is a lower level spell. If he Dispels Light with Darkness, then Darkness will not be in effect in the area and the Dim Light/Torch will prevail.
How is this cube being summoned? Is it hollow or solid? Is the BBEG inside the cube, or is it between the party and him? If the BBEG is within with what appears to a solid stone block but feels no physical force from the cube, I'd say that's grounds for auto disbelief right there, no action required. If he's inside a hollow cube, or the cube is between him and the party, then he needs to interact with the cube before he gets a check...
If he's inside a solid illusion (or hollow for that matter if he doesn't have a light source) he feels no physical effect, but he also can't see anything, can he? To be able to save vs an illusion the character has to interact with the illusion. If there's nothing for the character to interact with (touch/taste/smell/hear/see)... are they actually interacting with the illusion?
Wouldn't he assume that he's caught in a darkness spell? Or been struck blind?
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How is this cube being summoned? Is it hollow or solid? Is the BBEG inside the cube, or is it between the party and him? If the BBEG is within with what appears to a solid stone block but feels no physical force from the cube, I'd say that's grounds for auto disbelief right there, no action required. If he's inside a hollow cube, or the cube is between him and the party, then he needs to interact with the cube before he gets a check...If he's inside a solid illusion (or hollow for that matter if he doesn't have a light source) he feels no physical effect, but he also can't see anything, can he? To be able to save vs an illusion the character has to interact with the illusion. If there's nothing for the character to interact with (touch/taste/smell/hear/see)... are they actually interacting with the illusion?
Wouldn't he assume that he's caught in a darkness spell? Or been struck blind?
Ah, and here we come to why I mentioned this topic being so difficult. Many people have different interpretations of the Illusion rules, because they are not very clear and don't cover a whole bunch of plausible scenarios. What is required to disbelieve? What constitutes interaction? How do the Illusions affect the beholders?
In this instance, I'd say that being within the solid cube, or the darkness created by the hollow cube, would most certainly be interacting, at the very minimum. How can the Illusion be blinding him if it is not interacting with him in some way? So, at the very least, he gets a will save. If the character in question has Darkvision, he'd know something was up when he couldn't see anything, because he should be able to see something in Darkness.
However, why would the Illusion block out light? It's a figment, which, according to the PRD ;
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Emphasis mine. If the figment is not real, a false sensation, which cannot produce real effects or protect from the elements, how is it blocking out light? The light would pass through no problem. It also doesn't actually blind or prevent the victim from seeing, as that would be a real effect. Hence the victim can see, and see the sunlight, and hence have damn good reason to disbelieve.
Heck, even thinking from a balance point of view, you're arguing that, with Illusions, you could imitate the powers of 2nd level spells (namely Darkness and Blindness/Deafness) with a 1st level spell, which clearly isn't the intent.